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Theory Craft! More HP!

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NSKaneda
Posts: 981

Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#11 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:05 am

Collateral wrote:If I wanted I could easily get to 11k wounds unbuffed, and with conq proc I would get to 12k. But it's really not the best thing to do. If you don't focus on other things like ini, toughness and armour, you will have a lot of trouble. Bo is a relatively squishy tank from the start, so ignoring other stats would be a bad idea.
Aye, that was my point: there are better ways to boost survivability than Wounds ;)

(My live IB used to run with 10k HP and 700 toughness, Slayer built for duels had 10k Wounds and high parry rate + high crit, but I dueled sorcs and magi in Eataine back in the day)
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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Acidic
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Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#12 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:07 am

Well well, theorycraft in the post title but no sign of it in the post, for me at least.
Unfortunately I read “I die , I don’t like dying, give more HP so I don’t die”

The reality is imo group play and HP protection.
Group play gives u healer which is an abundant supply of HP.
HP protection armor, toughness resists .., make your effective HP much higher.

I think OP should look outside the small box and not nessasaraly go glass cannon

Egoish
Posts: 149

Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#13 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:39 am

I main a healer and i don't know how dps would manage in a higher hp environment, 2 dps focusing a target playing to stay alive isn't a secure kill without cc on me. Giving healers more time to react in 6v6 situations wouldn't be terrible but if 2-3 dps can't down a target sc/smallman would be impossible.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#14 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:41 am

Most people I know play sc for kills and not objectives; heck even in the 6v6 scene, there is only one German guild that actually play the objectives over pvp (for some weird reason). If you play scenarios ignoring PvP then why even play the game? There are better capture the flag games out there than war.

Also as Daniel said, in a 6v6 people won't die very quickly, very often.

Just more pug complaints. Good luck killing someone with 20k health as a level 32 dps ironbreaker with no pots. Bad players who roam around with no pots and no group (far too often is this the case) will always be easy pickings.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#15 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:51 am

Increased HP pools would just make zergs bigger as you would need more player dps to kill other players. I used to be a advocate for more HP aswell but it would just repeat the same mistake Mythic did with AoE damage nerf back in the days and force bigger zergs.

Higher static AoE dmg with some sort of to hit regulator so that you can't be hit by more then X direct damage attacks every DPS cycle aswell as replacing morale damage with self/group dmg buffs is a better option.
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Coma
Posts: 167

Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#16 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:09 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:Most people I know play sc for kills and not objectives; heck even in the 6v6 scene, there is only one German guild that actually play the objectives over pvp (for some weird reason). If you play scenarios ignoring PvP then why even play the game? There are better capture the flag games out there than war.

Also as Daniel said, in a 6v6 people won't die very quickly, very often.

Just more pug complaints. Good luck killing someone with 20k health as a level 32 dps ironbreaker with no pots. Bad players who roam around with no pots and no group (far too often is this the case) will always be easy pickings.
I don't think there is a need to overexagerate things, a 32 dps IB with no pots will already have a hard time (and he should have!!) killing a 6-7 k hp lvl 40 character with moderate gear... the 20k hp is obviously an overkill on a situation that is (or at least should be) already out of the norm (unless there is an HUGE difference in player ability... like the IB being the most skilled player around an the other being a living target dummy ^^').

This aside... I actualy have a single problem with survival being dependant on avoidance/crit chance decrease compared with wounds/damage reduction... that is the RNG...

click spoiler for a more in depth explanation... and be warned that is a wall of text :P
Spoiler:
Avoidance, high initiative and crit chance reduction on the "long run" actualy have the same effeciency as comparable high wounds, thougness, armor/resist and damage reduction... but in the short run they are much more volatile.
What I mean is that LUCK play a considerable role with avoidance in short fight or against burst combo.

To give an example;

with a 30% avoidance (i'm using effective avoidance for easy of explanation so take it as 30% after all calculation are done) and a 10% reduced chance to be crit against a 30% crit chance you would have an AVARAGE 70 hit landing out of 100 with only 14 of them being crit.
BUT when it come to smaller sample of hit, let say 10, than the values become volatile.
The AVARAGE would be 7 hit and 1,4 crit... but you can't get HALF a crit... so it is eitehr 2 or 1... what more with such short numbers of hit the possibility of the actual result diverging from the avarage is quite high.
You may end up suffering only 5 hit with 1 or no crit, or you may end up sufferingo 8 or 9 hit with 3 or 4 crit... those are values that fall without problem into the expected deviation of the avarage calculated over a small sample...
If you lower the number even more (for example the BW/Sorc ST burst combo that land 4-5 hit in a single timestamp) than the volatility is even more pronunced you may actualy end up with just one avoidance (or even 0) and 3 crit, or you may land 3 avoidance with 0 crit completely defusing the combo.
Another point affected by RNG is WHICH skill would actualy turn out to be a HIT and Crit... using the previous example of BW/Sorc burst combo the diffeence between avoiding a FB and getting a critted ignite tick and aviding the ignite while getting a critt FB is pretty dramatic.

So while it's ture that alternative to high HP do exist it also true that the way they perform is sustantially different, high HP/damage reduction give you a steady form of survival that you can somehow "depend on" and plan for, avoidance and crit reduce give you a survival that may end up being overperforming sometime and underperforming other time...

Certainly if you were able to stuck BOTH kind of survival that will turn into an endless fight (higher HP/damage reduction would translate in more hit required that would in turn translate into higher number of check for avoidance, resulting in avarage values becoming more consitent with effective number of avoidance thus reducing chance of "bad luck" affecting your survival).

That is why I, by no mean, hope for HP being simply increased on general level... on the other end the ability to chose between wich form of survival one whant to aim toward is a completely different matter... unfortunately some avoidance is INBOUND on most defensive gear (if you want to go for tough/wound centered equip you will most likely turn out to get equip that also have avoidance/crit reduce and that are so balanced in their effective stat by those avoidance values), on the other end if you want to "avoid" avoidance item you end up with your HP/damage reduction being (almost) completely dependant on talis while the item themselves provide little in those regards.

Now with all this said if you ask me for a solution... I have none that is easy to implement... but not being able to formulate a solution doesn't mean that the problem desn't exist ^^

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Collateral
Posts: 1494

Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#17 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:18 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:Increased HP pools would just make zergs bigger as you would need more player dps to kill other players. I used to be a advocate for more HP aswell but it would just repeat the same mistake Mythic did with AoE damage nerf back in the days and force bigger zergs.

Higher static AoE dmg with some sort of to hit regulator so that you can't be hit by more then X direct damage attacks every DPS cycle aswell as replacing morale damage with self/group dmg buffs is a better option.
Where are you anyway bro :O

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Druin
Former Staff
Posts: 1120

Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#18 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:38 pm

It's the third time you created this thread, I don't know what you expect the outcome to be this time.

If you look at fights between halfway organized groups with roughly equal skill, you will see that often no one dies for quite some time.
No healer, who knows the basics of his class, is going to die to a single dps. If you are solo sorc wandering the RvR and you get blown up by a WL, it's your own fault. And even in that scenario you have more time to react than in most other PvP games.

You are talking about a small margin of error like it's a bad thing, it's not. And the room for error in this game is quite large compared to most popular PvP games that are out there

"No everyone is a pro" - Do you want to survive even tho you're playing bad? Again, it's a PvP game, the better player is supposed to win.
Pretty much always afk or tabbed out.

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Theory Craft! More HP!

Post#19 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:29 pm

I'm not as nice as Druin.

User received a warning for remaking a thread that was locked previously. Next time you do this, you will be banned from the forum.

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