[Shaman] Totally Un-viable?

[peterthepan3]

TBC had its good times too, that's true (just never liked the pvp =P).

in regards to the debuffs/buffs, that's very true in WB play. I would recommend that you filter out the most important debuffs, i.e. those that you absolutely NEED to know you have on you/your enemy. To do this, you should use Aura addon (similar to WeakAuras from WoW if you know this addon?)

Anyway man, good to discuss balance. The top 15% thing could work too, to be fair, but I guess the question would be why 15? Why not 10? 20? Etc.

[ragafury]

Well balancing this game is quite hard, even for mediocre balance.

I don't even want to mention how hard or easy is the game to play..
The thing is, balance around whom and which scale? Around Teefz? Around fusion v Lob? Around phalanx vs. Rusblob?
You can't and you will never achieve perfect balance in this game.
Tactics and morales differ too much. There are too many. Unlike wow which had very minor racials, this game is very different from it, just compare 2 "mirrors". They are not even close too each other. Wow had minor racial gimmicks which gave a tremendous advantage in arena.
(high human passive stealth detection and sword mastery or Tauren stomp).
Next thing and I foreshadowed it. Absence of data. I think I saw one balance proposal with numbers and an excel sheet so far (Idk what papers fly around developers internally ofc.) . And next question? How to generate data with a large sample size considering used classes etc. Impossible. Not with one server and perhaps 3 guilds per scale and per realm which shape the meta.

I commend: take the game as what it is, whatever it is for "you" personally. And I'm not saying, don't strife for excellence, but be realistic in terms of balance overall considering the given facts. Besides, wait for patcher I guess. This will change classes may dramatically.

[BrockRiefenstahl]

TBC had its good times too, that's true (just never liked the pvp =P).

in regards to the debuffs/buffs, that's very true in WB play. I would recommend that you filter out the most important debuffs, i.e. those that you absolutely NEED to know you have on you/your enemy. To do this, you should use Aura addon (similar to WeakAuras from WoW if you know this addon?)

Anyway man, good to discuss balance. The top 15% thing could work too, to be fair, but I guess the question would be why 15? Why not 10? 20? Etc.

I see your point and the way you forward spin the web. You mean giving out the small finger and community bitesthe masters hand eh

Maybe I try to contact you ingame. I dont want to derail their topic for personal conversations.
Thanks for your time with trying to explain your standpoint properly. (and thanks for the exercise, I need to get better in English)

[GodlessCrom]

Honestly, I feel WAR is actually mechanically more complex than WoW, but WoW arena had a far more competitive mindset among the playerbase and so tryharding was the accepted method of play. Whereas here it is often looked down upon, or just brushed off as "not important." WoW also had like literally 1000 times the playerbase we have, if not more, so even if the tryhard percentage was the same, it ends up feeling like more.

[Bozzax]

I am a bit surprised of how many that seems to believe shaman Road runner spec and healing spec are the same.

Shamans are ok tho thanks to 3xShatter change and maybe one AOE hot short of being a great healer.

Shamans inability to counter BW rotations is still a significant weakness.

E: I do envy AM puddle ini debuff and secretly wish Shaman version had a resist debuff or something

[Qwack]

I believe the Shaman is in a good place.

Shaman healing is sufficient and actually shines when there is only 1 Healer in a group spamming group heal on guarded targets in SCs. If you have a bunch of unguarded delicate targets it will obviously not single-target heal/cleanse as well as Zealot or DOK.

Shaman damage is ok in the right spec. Getn Smarter really helped both for its extra DoT and Int buff. The Int buff allows for more renown points to be put in Crit.

Shaman in ORvR is great, especially in small mans and has a spot as a kiting Healer/Util or DPS/Util role for 6 mans as well.

UPDATE: Given the recent changes to DoT mechanics, increased Disrupt and how Detaunt gets knocked off on DoTs... The Shammy is not viable as DPS in pretty much any ORvR role. For Soloing or Small Man the DoT nerf hurts, but wasn't a killer. However, you can no longer put a 24 second Bleed For Me on a target (or another DoT) and Detaunt. Not being able to detaunt a target that has been Dot'ed is a serious nerf. The combination of offensive nerf, and detaunt nerf kills the Shammy in most every DPS role. Morale Bomb groups are still viable to have a Shammy in since it powers a group morale boost but its my understanding that the Devs are not wanting morale bomb groups under threat of nerfing the whole mechanic (Devs If I am incorrect on this matter pls let me know, only going on what I have been told).

A DPS Shammy slotting Hurts Don't It (roughly 240 toughness debuff and 150 morale drain per hit) still adequately harms front line tanks in ORvR. But is it worth it? Probably not given all that is negative now.

A DPS Shammy can still put out decent SC numbers with Da Waagh spec but admittedly, most of that is fluff AE damage. Coupled with "Hurts Don't It" its not horrible and is semi-viable at best.

As for Healing Shammy, there is a slight buff now given that Willpower significantly ups Disrupt.

DPS AMs are potentially worse off having to rely on 4 DoTs for the majority of their damage.

[footpatrol2]

E: I do envy AM puddle ini debuff and secretly wish Shaman version had a resist debuff or something

Shaman sticky feetz does have a resist debuff.

@thread
Dps shaman has access to mork's touch tactic which is amazing. Dps shaman's can dish out decent AoE with da Waaagh is coming. Mork's Touch tactic remove's blessings which are RP/WP hots so your removing RP/WP hots potentially via AE which has tremendous value. The more dps shaman's you bring with mork's touch tactic the more you can hard counter warband's based on RP/WP healing.

If you pick up sticky feetz in your off-spec as a dps shaman your increasing your warbands kite game. rocks run's a heavy kite game warband with like 8 to 12 sticky feetz plus more AE snare tricks. If you pick up Scuse me in your off-spec instead of sticky feetz, you gain another AE spell that strips RP/WP hots and lowers elemental resistance. Scuse me is the best Elemental debuff because it stays on targets. Scuse me increases your own damage output and increases the damage output on groups based on ere we go damage which rocks uses a lot.

Dps Shaman's bring more instant rez which mean's more morale bomb recovery for ORvR fights.
Dps Shaman's also bring more cleanse. Granted that shouldn't be your focus but it's there.

I want to run a 4 dps shaman 2 heally shaman group in a warband setting. The purpose of the group is to strip RP/WP hots for ORvR, increase our kite game even more, more intel based AP drains, more gork sez stops, plus a lot more tricks.

By the way rocks is looking for more dps shamans.

[Bozzax]

Guess I should have written a resist (all 3) since ele is so rare

[freshour]

I keep coming back to my shaman to try and get some healing done on him. Aside from a timely M2 and standing around using group heals. I can't really seem to compete with other healers, like literally never even close. I always have the right people HoT'd, and I put the toughness hot on the mdps or squishes as well. I have my ap drain up when it isn't disrupted (usually is), with lifetap healing for like.... 100, I'm really not sure what to do anymore lol. My 33 Zealot can heal 3x what my shammy can, and with a dok being my main it is no contest there. Not really sure if this is still temporary or if this is where they want them.

[Arconnn]

I keep coming back to my shaman to try and get some healing done on him. Aside from a timely M2 and standing around using group heals. I can't really seem to compete with other healers, like literally never even close. I always have the right people HoT'd, and I put the toughness hot on the mdps or squishes as well. I have my ap drain up when it isn't disrupted (usually is), with lifetap healing for like.... 100, I'm really not sure what to do anymore lol. My 33 Zealot can heal 3x what my shammy can, and with a dok being my main it is no contest there. Not really sure if this is still temporary or if this is where they want them.

Don't use Lifetap heals