Procs and Dots (theory crafting here)

[freshour]

Intro:

Spoiler:

Completely spit ball thread. I understand the consequences of procs if they are too strong. But I personally believe they are the key to bringing certain builds to be more on par and would technically be less work than reworking the entire class. I'm all for simple fixes that can complement future fixes. But be gentle and maybe rather than just saying "no" - give some logic/reason to this and maybe some ideas of how it could work?

So I know the proc meta is like the bane of all of everyone's existence. Or just me and I'm trying to rationalize internal turmoil over the fact that my poor poor wittle bitty DoK isn't the master race it was before. /s /s /s /s /s /s /s /s /s

But what does everyone think about weapon procs working on dots? I get it... it could be immensely OP. BUT I think if the procs themselves had their damage scaled back it would open up two avenues

Two Avenues.

Spoiler:

1. People who have either a dot spec, or ST spec would now have to choose. Sure if one was better, they always do that but generally speaking ST specs are for smaller groups, AOE specs are for larger groups. One has never been so much better than the other that it breaks that meta... But this might get people to use some variety?????

2. It brings toughness back into the game as currently it is an incredibly weak stat unless you have 3500+ armor and THEN get your toughness super high like some tanks are able to do (and some engis lol).... ANYWAY....

My pitch..

Spoiler:

For instance, you guys hate the proc meta. I get it. It is something that is very hard to balance and can be cheesed out to hell and back. So what if the procs were not party based, yet player based? If the proc meta is still an issue keep coming with ICD's, but maybe instead of 300-360 spirit damage, give them 180? and allow them to proc on dots? In reality they will only hit for half their value on a VERY squishie debuffed target... But for instance, the Magus could dot someone up to hell and back and the damage wouldn't scale super super super high, but it would give a new level of sustained damage. It would also bring the relevance of the DoK/WP back into the healing meta as they can AOE hot to counter these dots. The primary reason DoK/WP are being phased out isn't their inferior healing (that is part of it I will say) - it is because they have literally no single heals that can hit over 2k consistently when every single shaman/am life tap is well over 2k sometimes even close to 4k... RP/Zealot just have some amazing utility and they are where healers should be scaled down/up to..

Summary:

Spoiler:

This would make dot specs more relevant. It would need to be tinkered with to get the damage right as in possibly scaling certain classes like Zealot/Magus/Engi/RP (if they ever go dps anymore) down to balance out... But I think an easy way to do this would be to take the comparable AOE and ST specs... You then use enemy to get the max ST damage and the MAX aoe damage on say... 4 targets. Then you can tinker with the dot damage and proc weapons to be comparable? Seems remotely straight forward and I know people like DoT specs, people love procs. This would give us procs, and bring up the dot specs to be more in line with outright AOE bombing as well as allow them to moderately compete with the ST specs?

Thoughts?

[Darosh]

Procs being triggered by dots? Do you even math, mate?

Abbd.: Take Slayer's ID as an example, what do you think happens if an ID tick (=regarded as direct damage and defendable, hence able to trigger things) coincides with AA+style(SC/PS) and triggers BW, WP and Subjugator procs (Note: The very extremes of this are atleast partially gated by BiS gear.)? Take that and apply it to dot-heavy classes, or classes that have access to atleast 2-3 dots. You'd have to reduce the proc-chances and/or dps to marginal (= abysmal) levels, especially in everything >1 (= bringing those classes in bulk) -duh.

TLDR: I'd prefer not see +50 instances in one timestamp in a large scale engagements - tho, it'd make BT's day.

[Jaycub]

The problem with dots is everyone and their mom specs cw2 so they can completely negate you every 2 minutes, SW can run m1 CW mirror and CW2, destro has even after the nerf a Group wide all but curse cleansing winds every minute. New subjagator capes have triple cleanse on them.

Also because people are so rough to kill when in a proper group with a guard and 2 healers, direct burst damage is key to killing things outside of zerg v zerg AoE spam where the game seems to be balanced around defensively, except for poor mdps that are basically obsolete sans WL and Mara thanks to anti rdps tools.

[TenTonHammer]

I don't know about procs and dots and all that but I do want to point out that jagged edge and riposte dmg scales with rage on live and it dosnt do that here

[freshour]

Just a spitball post. Obviously they would be scaled, but I primarily meant for certain classes that have "dot specs" - to make them more viable. Not literally EVERYONE. I guess I should have been more clear.

[Darosh]

Just a spitball post. Obviously they would be scaled, but I primarily meant for certain classes that have "dot specs" - to make them more viable. Not literally EVERYONE. I guess I should have been more clear.

It'd end up in a convoluted system consisting of multiple layers of ICDs, procchances and weirdly scaling valuees all around - moreso, it'd be impossible to completly take into account what comes about if you bring just about anything in bulk. Let alone how much it'd shift and twist the balance, while it would, as Torque has pointed out, screw with the itemization and viability of classes.

The gear gating you have in place for most classes, especially those revolving around haste and such is pretty much on spot as far as I am concerned ~ a tiny push towards either direction would probably break it, and with that said:
I hope the itemization will stick to this balance and build upon it, I am a little nervous though as it comes to new sets - if there are certain stats introduced to certain slots, it would probably prompt a broad 'nerf' (based upon the community uproar [read: composition]) or a long period of re-adjustment, which, depending on how difficault it is to acquire that new gear, could make for alot of trouble long-and shortterm.

[freshour]

Just a spitball post. Obviously they would be scaled, but I primarily meant for certain classes that have "dot specs" - to make them more viable. Not literally EVERYONE. I guess I should have been more clear.

It'd end up in a convoluted system consisting of multiple layers of ICDs, procchances and weirdly scaling valuees all around - moreso, it'd be impossible to completly take into account what comes about if you bring just about anything in bulk. Let alone how much it'd shift and twist the balance, while it would, as Torque has pointed out, screw with the itemization and viability of classes.

The gear gating you have in place for most classes, especially those revolving around haste and such is pretty much on spot as far as I am concerned ~ a tiny push towards either direction would probably break it, and with that said:
I hope the itemization will stick to this balance and build upon it, I am a little nervous though as it comes to new sets - if there are certain stats introduced to certain slots, it would probably prompt a broad 'nerf' (based upon the community uproar [read: composition]) or a long period of re-adjustment, which, depending on how difficault it is to acquire that new gear, could make for alot of trouble long-and shortterm.

yeah you are probably right about that. The last thing I want is more destro nerfs since that tends to be all we've gotten the last 6 months minus BG getting a bit of a rework. So seeing that this idea would ultimately end up with more range/nerfs/bad than good. I'll concede and hopefully the nerfs will stop and possibly we can use the B word again *buff* lol.