[WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

[Penril]

I'm not using any PuG argument Penril. I'm using a numbers argument.
If a WL does 300 dmg how much damage does 4 do? If a WP heals for 200 how much do 4 heals for? . And if that just keeps on increasing more and more you gonna come across unballanced scaling since HP pools doesn't scale the same way. Thats why something can seem ok on a smaller scale but if you increase it to 2:1 it can really easy turn into something compeltly different. Thats why you can't have 18 man, 12 man and 6 man instances wich basicly play the same game uset he same ballance scale.

As for WL and Mara. Have them both drop the Armor debuff and make WL AoE 's into spirit dmg, alternavly make Force Oppurunity into a up to 990 AoE Armor debuff. Don't have any sugestion for what to replace Mara Armor debuff with.

Like I said earlier. If you can get 12 people to focus the same target, you deserve an easy kill regardless of what classes you are playing.

I fear 4 Sorcs focusing me more than I fear 4 WLs.

[dansari]

The pet fighting for you argument can be attributed to SH as well who are even bigger culprits as they can unhorse you from range while chasing. Not a solid argument.

Clown has it exactly right.. WL are easily dealt with in competent groups because their pet opens up a weakness that reduces their damage substantially.

Aurandillaz - WL literally has nothing to do with "no destro premades" running. In my limited experience with Caledor fights, maras have been higher damage than WL 100% of the time.

[th3gatekeeper]

I saw two awesome ideas.

1. Make the pet squishier
2. Make the pet deal less damage when the WL is further away..

Why not do something like the pet takes an increased damage multiplier when further from the WL? That way the opponents have a fair chance at blowing up the pet if he sends it to the backline for a fetch?

I don't like to toot my own horn, but I guess a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then? Do you guys think that may eliminate some of the pug rage while also upping the skill cap required to play the class well?

Not a bad idea..... Man I wish some WL players would come in here. I just dont know the class or builds well enough...

One thing that stands out to me that seems weird...

"Path of The Axeman" : " Trained to Threaten" This makes your WL tankier AND gives you crit... Do WLs use this? Seems like the stat benefits of Axeman should be replaced with stat benefits of Guardian...

So "Trained to Threaten" would read: Increases your pets strength and weapon skill by yours and additionally increases your chance to crit by 5%.

Then "Trained to Kill" (Guardian Tree) would be: Increases your pets wounds and toughness by yours and increases your toughness.

So now the "PET" tree is the only 1 that makes it tankier... While the Axeman tree adds damage... This does what @torq I think wanted?

Then as suggested above.. you can make the pet deal less damage the further away it is... Or maybe you do something like "Trained to Hunt/Kill/Threaten" ONLY impact a WL and his pet with they are within X feet of eachother...

So if you send your pet 50+ feet away... they lose a bunch of those stats? IDK....

[Arbich]

So... Mara deadly clutch. Provides heal debuff - same as WL "Thin the heard".. However I dont see many WLs rocking this tree...

Thin the herd is outgoing (or was it changed?). I consider outgoing heal debuffs inferior in comparison to incoming heal debuffs.

Armor Debuff + Wounds debuff + Heal debuff all in 1 tree. This is the problem I agree combined with a LOW "Guillotine" as well as Growing Instability + Mutated Aggressor.

I like Torq's idea: re-allocate the cost of the abilities.

Cutting Claw should be 13 points (swapped with Draining Swipe). Then...
Growing Instability moved to T3 (swapped with Unstable Convulsions)...

What this does - prevents a Mara from gaining ALL the goodies in Sav. as well as Brutality. Youll have to give up SOMETHING to get 50% more crit damage.

I like the idea. Actually I had the same idea about cutting claw after torques post .

Could be a first step.

RoR.builders - Marauder

With your suggested changes in mind. Mara will lose mutated aggressor. Don´t know if this is enough.


About WL and the premade argument: If only 6man group arguments are valid - and most 6man groups focus the pet - and the possibility to heal the pet to counter this strategy - increasing the cooldown to call the pet should be the way to go.

[th3gatekeeper]

So... Mara deadly clutch. Provides heal debuff - same as WL "Thin the heard".. However I dont see many WLs rocking this tree...

Thin the herd is outgoing (or was it changed?). I consider outgoing heal debuffs inferior in comparison to incoming heal debuffs.

Armor Debuff + Wounds debuff + Heal debuff all in 1 tree. This is the problem I agree combined with a LOW "Guillotine" as well as Growing Instability + Mutated Aggressor.

I like Torq's idea: re-allocate the cost of the abilities.

Cutting Claw should be 13 points (swapped with Draining Swipe). Then...
Growing Instability moved to T3 (swapped with Unstable Convulsions)...

What this does - prevents a Mara from gaining ALL the goodies in Sav. as well as Brutality. Youll have to give up SOMETHING to get 50% more crit damage.

I like the idea. Actually I had the same idea about cutting claw after torques post .

Could be a first step.

RoR.builders - Marauder

With your suggested changes in mind. Mara will lose mutated aggressor. Don´t know if this is enough.

yeah thats exactly what I was thinking too. Keep in mind, not all Maras are RR70+.... So MOST maras in the 50s or 60s will have to give up even more to get all this...

If you REALLY wanted to make this "enough" you would swap Guillotine with Wave of Terror (and balance appropriately).

So that now you lose the big "burst" damage if you want utility and vice versa... So you cant have BOTH Guillotine AND armor debuff.

OR.... You throw "Feeding on Fear" to replace "Exhaustive Strikes (Sav)" and now you CANT get it all.. (assuming you want to run FOF)

[TenTonHammer]

NOW we are getting somewhere

So... Mara deadly clutch. Provides heal debuff - same as WL "Thin the heard".. However I dont see many WLs rocking this tree...

Armor Debuff + Wounds debuff + Heal debuff all in 1 tree. This is the problem I agree combined with a LOW "Guillotine" as well as Growing Instability + Mutated Aggressor.

I like Torq's idea: re-allocate the cost of the abilities.

Cutting Claw should be 13 points (swapped with Draining Swipe). Then...
Growing Instability moved to T3 (swapped with Unstable Convulsions)...

What this does - prevents a Mara from gaining ALL the goodies in Sav. as well as Brutality. Youll have to give up SOMETHING to get 50% more crit damage.

Maras probelm has always been that its TOO GOOD, viable in every situation and so you ALWAYS run one becuase it provides soo much ultilty and respectable damage which is why live ended up up x2 mara parties.

Not only should we be reordering everything in the mara tree so that it cant get everything it wants with the cookie cutter ST build but i dot feel that mara deserves or needs an ability like TB and if you insist that it does the i feel that the scaling of the ability isnt greater than that of Hastened Doom on BG.

Infact i think that the scaling of all of maras debuffs should be looked at so that its not greater than that of BG so that Mara's debuffs are not superior in every case.

For WL personally i think that we should remove the armor debuff on WL inorder to free up potential for other classes with armor debuff to step in but make more of WL's to deal spirit damage


I also want to raise another question here

Why do WL and mara get 10s CD detuants while all other mdps have 30s CD?

espically mara whom is the most durable due to medium armor, monstro stance and guard

[roadkillrobin]

I'm not using any PuG argument Penril. I'm using a numbers argument.
If a WL does 300 dmg how much damage does 4 do? If a WP heals for 200 how much do 4 heals for? . And if that just keeps on increasing more and more you gonna come across unballanced scaling since HP pools doesn't scale the same way. Thats why something can seem ok on a smaller scale but if you increase it to 2:1 it can really easy turn into something compeltly different. Thats why you can't have 18 man, 12 man and 6 man instances wich basicly play the same game uset he same ballance scale.

As for WL and Mara. Have them both drop the Armor debuff and make WL AoE 's into spirit dmg, alternavly make Force Oppurunity into a up to 990 AoE Armor debuff. Don't have any sugestion for what to replace Mara Armor debuff with.

Like I said earlier. If you can get 12 people to focus the same target, you deserve an easy kill regardless of what classes you are playing.

I fear 4 Sorcs focusing me more than I fear 4 WLs.

It doesn't mather what class it is, i was just using WL as an example. And nowere did I say anything anout 12 people focus on the same target. I said 4 dps focusing one target making it unhealeble if burst isn't ballanced properly.

[freshour]

@TenTonHammer

I have asked 4-5 WL's during SC's that seem to be fully geared out/have a clue what they are doing and they and others stated that if a WL had his armor debuff removed they would be, and I'm quoting here

"Irrelevant in the 6 man party scene"
"A useless class"
"It would destroy the entire class"

- While I think there may be some over dramatization there. That of all the changes proposed right now, in an armor meta would probably yield the most rage.

[Valfaros]

tldr; Marauder slightly OP, WL isn't, killing pugs in RvR to top KDR can be done with any class in the game.

I agree that Marauder is too strong I think nobody will say otherwise but the fact that most of the premades play with a WL show pretty clearly where the WL stands. WL only performs "so" poorly in 6v6 because your enemy mostly runs exactly what a WL can't handle very good, a tough not easily burstable marauder. If your WL setup faces any different setup the cards look quite different and mostly on your favor. So yes if you look at the setup bo, chosen, shaman, zealot and 2 marauders of corse WL seems to be okay but only because that's the worst scenario a WL can face things look totally different when other classes are used.

The best that can be done is to tune down both classes until other classes can shine. I want to see other setups atleast somewhat close to that monsters WL and marauder.

Ah and for god sake just take a look at ensnare do they really need this crazy m1.

[TenTonHammer]

@TenTonHammer

I have asked 4-5 WL's during SC's that seem to be fully geared out/have a clue what they are doing and they and others stated that if a WL had his armor debuff removed they would be, and I'm quoting here

"Irrelevant in the 6 man party scene"
"A useless class"
"It would destroy the entire class"

- While I think there may be some over dramatization there. That of all the changes proposed right now, in an armor meta would probably yield the most rage.

Oh

i just figured if you removed the armor debuff from WL then other classes with armor debuff like IB could step in and shine and making WL have more spirit damage based attacks as compensation would allow the class to synergize better with SM