[WL vs Mara] NOT a flame thread but honest Discussion.

[arcdevil]

I think their utility should be slightly brought down and perhaps, probably, maybe their survivability also a weeeee bit tuned down. Their dps is fine

[pot]

Most of the maras i watched playing ror dont even have to stance dance to be effective.... its ridiculously good

[dansari]

Something that we've talked about in guild chat before is that the only reason why people complain about WLs is because they're a direct counter to the kiting tools that shammy, SH have and since shammies have become stronger, more people play them, more people play their counters, etc. I don't know enough about either class to offer any ground breaking fixes, just wanted to add perspective

[Osred]

Something that we've talked about in guild chat before is that the only reason why people complain about WLs is because they're a direct counter to the kiting tools that shammy, SH have and since shammies have become stronger, more people play them, more people play their counters, etc. I don't know enough about either class to offer any ground breaking fixes, just wanted to add perspective

Thankyou. Finally someone says it.

[Aleteh]

The only thing i'd like to see changed is how Terrible Embrace gets disrupted instead of parried. Why isn't it melee based? Its a tendril that latches on to the target.

Seeing the mara pull get disrupted by lowbie melee dps and then watching group mates get pulled through floors from McTurboCat3000 is pretty disheartening

[roadkillrobin]

Well it's gonna take some self criticism from the players playing the classes.,wich I think never gonna happen or it gonna takes someone from staff taking the bull by it's horn and just do it and preparee for the incomming shitstorm of disspleasure from the Mara/WL community.

[freshour]

Something that we've talked about in guild chat before is that the only reason why people complain about WLs is because they're a direct counter to the kiting tools that shammy, SH have and since shammies have become stronger, more people play them, more people play their counters, etc. I don't know enough about either class to offer any ground breaking fixes, just wanted to add perspective

I totally agree with you. I'm not saying order shouldn't have a "kite meta" breaker that pounce 100% is. I don't think the OP or anyone else really thinks that either because WL pounce is one of the few "you aren't going to kite me" in combination with some of their other moves such as KD, CC immunity for 10 seconds and so on. I speak for myself when I ask what the destro version of this is/could be?

I'm not gonna get philosophical and say WL's are why destro play more melee as they can void out RDPS pretttty quick because obviously there is more to it than that. A simple solution is to just take something from Mara and give it pounce, but as posted above that likely won't happen. So what are other solutions/answers? I'm not so sure but I think that was a great comment.

[Aurandilaz]

IMO the greatest cause of "imbalance" between the mdps classes is the "downside" of each class;
WE/WH are basically clothies, somehow supposed to operate at frontline or behind enemy lines, works as long as you don't get it.
Choppa/Slayer are basically going to suicide if not properly aided, as their mechanic also punishes them as their defences become paper thin when at full mechanic.
Mara downside; ???
WL downside, pet; which can also be their greatest asset.

On the upside, Mara is basically about as good as you can be as a frontline mdps, and WL is on similar levels, except with even better mobility thanks to Pounce. Medium armour is really nice if you plan on having a longer fight, and no Rage mechanic that makes you into a glasscannon.

Their crown jewel might be their awesome armour debuff, which is very potent in current state of game, but will become less potent as more armour with somewhat higher values is added into the game.

Curiously enough, I think both Order and Destruction have some kind of balance, as both WL and Mara are "damn awesome"; it's just that the other mdps keep drawing the short straws.

I need to get my WL to 40 before hoping to make a balance proposal, but my current proto-idea would be something that involves maybe decreasing their armour debuff by 10-20% from its current potency, and possibly shaving the cats balls until its damage outputs decreases by 10-25%. Not some major "class shattering" changes, but minor nerfs that should somehow limit the current potency. (if Squig Pet also loses some damage, so be it)
The maurader might also need similar adjusting to their current armour debuffing potential, the class is quite the beast these days.

[th3gatekeeper]

Something that we've talked about in guild chat before is that the only reason why people complain about WLs is because they're a direct counter to the kiting tools that shammy, SH have and since shammies have become stronger, more people play them, more people play their counters, etc. I don't know enough about either class to offer any ground breaking fixes, just wanted to add perspective

Care to elaborate?

I know Shaman and SH have "RUN AWAY!" so you are saying order needs Pounce to counter this tactic?

I dont think its JUST Shaman/SH that are "kiting"... I see all RDPS kiting. BWs can do it, AMs do it, SWs do it... As well as Magus/Sorc/etc....

RDPS counters RDPS...

I dont see WLs only excelling in those situations either... What I see is they pounce in, KD, Armor debuff, BIG burst damage, and if in danger have plenty of tools to escape.

So IDK. I get the line of thinking there... but that doesnt seem to be THE reason... If WL was "only good against SH/Shaman" I dont think you would see as many of them as there are... I think WL is over populated and overpowered in general - not just as a "counter" to two classes... (EDIT: AS are Mara... Not trying to single 1 class out here but merely responding to the post).

[dansari]

Therein lies the age old question.. what do you balance around? Personally I like the idea of balancing around 6v6s (not even competitive.. just competent) and in this regard I don't think either class is overperforming. Maybe Mara because I think destro can viably make 2 Mara work in a 2-2-2 whereas order can't with WL (the pet is a liability I think)? I dunno but I don't think they're overperforming at this level.

@gate - I didn't say order need the ability; it's simply there which is why I think you see more people complain about it when they roll their fotm solo shammy (no disrespect intended). They're also not the only ones kiting, but they are in their own bracket of kite, which makes the pill hard to swallow when you get caught by nothing but WLs.