MELEE: STR vs WS - Haven't seen this in a while

[dansari]

Holy **** those morale pumps.

[kotsosman]

On the topic of movement and formation.
You are right we have a macro running since yesterday
GreatJob. Movement was ****. (dont get too excited it has nothing to do with you)
But to be honest i find it hard keeping on formation chasing retreating Destro.
So i thought since you are here and if its not much trouble
can you please tell your destro frinds and the destro side if its not much to ask.
can you please like retreat like in a group formation? would help me alot thnx.

Smiliejack =]

[kotsosman]

im just messing aroung <3

[Darosh]

Well, a bit on topic after all the pointless RvR/GvG banter:

First things first: the wonkyness of mythics formulas has always been rather adorable.

@Karast, I guess you have completetly neglected the progression; furthermore the caps, of armor mitigation and armor penetration.
If you test WS on a tank sitting at or above 120% mitigation with a DPS that can reach the WS values in question you'd see that:

WS starts having an insignificant impact once you get pass the 40% (~560WS) treshold, a minor impact once you get pass the 50% (~700WS) treshold, a moderate impact once you get pass the 60% (~840WS) treshold and a significant impact once you hit - or atleast closely approach - the softcap with 75% (1050WS).

If you cannot reach high enough WS valuees to get past the 75% armor mitigation hardcap post armor penetration there is absolutely no point in testing the impact of WS to begin with, as the numbers will lead you to wrong conclusions (no offense intended). Now, let alone stacking it.

As it stands the conversion of WS => AP sits at roughly 16ish WS to ~1,024%AP - approaching retail state of 14WS to 1%; considering I cannot be arsed to go tryhard on the math for a game a minor wonkyness should be considered a given.

Neglecting avoidance strikethroughs and the new way toughness works WS will outscale mainstats (BS/STR) by a factor of roughly ~1,723 at a WS value of 900 and above, steadily increasing to a factor of roughly ~2.1273 as you approach the softcap of WS (in terms of "statweighs" that is, make out of it what you will).
However, if you factor in avoidance strikethroughs and the toughness rework that will certainly even out, if not give mainstat a (minor-to-moderate) edge.

Yet again, everyone is of course advised to prioritize mainstat over WS until they hit (1050) or approach (~950) of their respective mainstat (prebuffs), before even considering putting any effort into stacking WS.
Furthermore, before you start stacking WS you might want to reconsider the class you play and moreso the format and composition you play in.

There is virtually no reason to go full glasscannon if you aren't a dedicated SC player with a fix 6man - there is no fancy RR100/lotd godmode available on RoR to sustain that playstyle outside of a controlled environment.
You are better off softcapping mainstat and either investing into defensives (tough/armor or even resistances for that matter...) or just plain wounds if you play in a WB/roam format, especially if you are playing a class that has a hard time stacking WS to begin with.
If you however have a metric **** of focushealing .ab ex shamans/AMs, a Blorc/SM to buff you up and the necessary gear/rr you can indeed get to to the softcap of 1050 on certain classes and have quite some fun I figure...

TLDR:
WS is not a garbage stat for the classes that can softcap their mainstat without much of an issue and lastly players that can maintain a proper 6man (with order having a major edge given their abundance of crit buffs/tactics and ini debuffs allowing them to maintain high critchances without stacking them via gear/rr necessarily).
But it is, however, a very cost-inefficient stat for most classes.

Disclaimer: I am barely paying attention to the forums, so chances are I won't see replies/won't reply myself - see post count. My apologies. Furthermore, my math might be wrong aswell, so take it for what you will ~ test it yourself.

[th3gatekeeper]

I love how a weapon skill vs STR thread got derailed to a destru vs order morale pump argument (again)..... Might as well add a White Lion vs Mara argument in here and just go for the full gambit....

Back to the OP,

It SEEMS from many people's "testing" that weapon skill is really subpar when it comes to damage... Which seems weird to me, because armor is OP (we all know) and it seems like weaponskill SHOULD be the "armor-counter" stat....

Here is my example (mooting out str/toughness etc):

lets just say you hit someone for 1000 (after the toughness reduction etc). They have 70% armor. You have 20% armor pen.

So it would stand to reason, the net hit would be 500.

Next you add 10% MORE armor pen. this would bump your damage to 600.

So 10% more armor pen would = a 20% damage boost.... But this doesnt work this way in game. Why? Or does it? Because it doesnt SEEM to make much difference when I have 400 WS or 300.... (admittedly, I have not tested WS)

Another side note: I dont get why WS even offers Parry when your opponents strength just bypasses it... Same with willpower and disrupt. A BW who has 1000 Int, versus someone who has 500 willpower. The "disrupt" from willpower literally means nothing.... Its basically an artificially inflated %. Might as well just remove it, and get the REAL %s from combat. (it just never made sense to me).

[xanderous]

I love how a weapon skill vs STR thread got derailed to a destru vs order morale pump argument (again)..... Might as well add a White Lion vs Mara argument in here and just go for the full gambit....

Back to the OP,

You can thank Haojin for that

[Toshutkidup]

1. If you want I can hunt down the post with the 14AM comment. And 8 Shamans is not the same as 8 AM using the 2s heal for the pump. I know this looks good on paper but it doesn't work in a warband setting.

2. Please provide examples of groups using it. It is too much to ask that when you say many people use it, to then actually give some examples. I will shut up and never post about this topic again if you can actually provide proof of concept in a warband setting while fighting in the lakes.

3. I was in those WB's on live. This is not live. Things work differently here. The morale pumps were no where near as effective and most videos from live are from when those guilds had full sov and the sov morale strips. It was a different game, and a different time.

4. Yes you jumped sides. Do you have videos of you using this magic AM morale pump from back then? We are suppose to trust your divine knowledge of order warband comp and tactics because you played around for 1-2 in last year before jumping back to destro. I have a magus and BG on destro side. Does that make me a master of destro WB comp?

1- You can hunt whatever you want, i didn't say anything about 14 AM's is the most optimized warband setup for order.

2- I didn't say MANY people using it, you can just experince it on the fields time to time if an opponent spec for it. The proof ? If you hit by No Escape/Solar Flare/Ruin and Destruction/Rune of Skewering more faster than before, a normal people got a descent intelligence can understand they pumped by an AM. Is this effective when you get hit by it ? Absolutely.

"Example" in 6 v 6.

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

3-I'm talking about compositions and according that video from your guild, your composition is completely trash and really not look like a proper order warband, not even close.

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

4- We played order like 1-2 months and tested/experinced stuff and thats it. Your whinings about " PROVE IT, SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE "**** experienced by us.

PS: You look like a real compo master according your guild video, really enjoyed it

Appreciate sharing the video, please remember to LIKE, Comment and Subscribe.

[Dabbart]

(admittedly, I have not tested WS)

Shoulda stopped there then.

Another side note: I dont get why WS even offers Parry when your opponents strength just bypasses it... Same with willpower and disrupt. A BW who has 1000 Int, versus someone who has 500 willpower. The "disrupt" from willpower literally means nothing.... Its basically an artificially inflated %. Might as well just remove it, and get the REAL %s from combat. (it just never made sense to me).

Because on Live stat bypass(str through parry, int through disrupt etc) effected EVERYTHING. Your defenses from stats, items, RR, abilities, tactics, etc. The stat boost was a way to help defend against that a little more. Personally, I love the RoR system of stats only affect the defense from stats. Since stacking disrupt jewels or RR actually has an effect now.

They do count though. You want to roll that Tank with 300str? Cool. My WS stacked WE will parry you at a stupidly high rate. Same goes for WP. Trying to run a DPS AM/sham/Z/RP w/o capped Int? Or maybe just trying to get off a Stagger or Silence with a healer? Pity your enemies disrupt is gonna be 40%+.

Also... Are you unaware that you are supposed to use .getstats to see your REAL character information? That statdoll doesn't update properly, and it never has. Not to mention it calculates your defenses in a truly dumb way. Don't ever rely on your stat doll. If it doesn't come from .getstats it's probably bullshit.

On topic: You can't calculate WS vs Str like that imo. That's like saying is it better to stack STR or Parry Strikethrough? Depends on your targets. If you're targets are under softcap AFTER armor debuff, then it is better to stack STR. If they are over cap then more WS will lead to more damage.

It is almost entirely target dependant. In general though, if you want to tank DPS efficiently I would say 750-800 str buffed is the min to not just be ignored. If you are an actual DPS class, then you need to cap STR or at least over 900 before your worry about secondary stats.

After that, just go play and see how it feels.

[freshour]

Holy cow those WS posts were amazing!!!!! Okay so granted I will still test to confirm all of this this weekend. I am finally approaching 1k str on my DoK while still having solid disrupt/parry/cleansing winds which was not easy at all.

Dare I ask if anyone knows in general how valuable parry strikethrough is? Maybe I shouldn't ask this lol... but I will just to see what happens.

[Luth]

Dare I ask if anyone knows in general how valuable parry strikethrough is? Maybe I shouldn't ask this lol... but I will just to see what happens.

It is very valuable on RoR because

Spoiler:

Because on Live stat bypass(str through parry, int through disrupt etc) effected EVERYTHING. Your defenses from stats, items, RR, abilities, tactics, etc. The stat boost was a way to help defend against that a little more. Personally, I love the RoR system of stats only affect the defense from stats. Since stacking disrupt jewels or RR actually has an effect now.

It's the only way to reduce/ignore additional parry chances that don't come from stats (e.g. + parry from renown abilities, gear, tactics, abilities).
So, for instance, several tactics and abilities to reduce those chances make actually sense here, on the contrary to the mythic servers.