DPS spec tank/healer Hypocrisy

[zumos2]

This thread is really getting into another "let's bash the guy that can't play premade all the day"

I think Gate is right, guard is an issue, certainly not the only one but one that needs to be looked at.

When i had the time to always play premades i too didn't realize how clunky and boring guard was, until i had to start to pug in order to be able to play. Most of these players that are saying there's no issues are just players that can always have a fresh supply of tanks, and have never been forced to pug once in their playtime on RoR.

Sweeping the problems under the rug is just going to make it worse. There's a reason the numbers have been going down, and it's not only because the update isn't new anymore. there are issues and (in my opinion at least) guard is the main issue the pug population is having, and considering pugs and soloplayers are a big chunk of the playerbase it should at least deserve to be looked at.

But as always, until the issues don't affect the premaders, it's always fine, and there's no problem whatsoever.

Don't try to ruin the combat system to cater for those who are unwilling to play good setups. Combat should be balanced around highest level of play in both small scale and large scale environment. Besides guard is one of the defining mechanics of WAR combat system, it's not something you can just take out.

I do however feel like that pugs should get more rewards in RvR. Previously you got medals worth using for taking BOs and running supplies. Now you only get them for locking the zone and for kills. Pug warbands tend to not make too many kills, so the amount of medals an average pug receives per zone is really low. And they simply have a very low chance of receiving good rewards from the zone lock. Now I'm not advacating for easy rewards capping uncontested BOs, however I think it would be a good idea to implement some kind of conqueror shard which is 1/5 of a conqueror medallion. Then you can give several conqueror shards for taking BOs and running supplies dependent on how contested the BO was. This gives pugs some more medallion gain which they can really use.

[zumos2]

That's an interesting concept.. giving some type of incentive for tanks to use guard. I wonder if something could be added that doesn't go against the vision of the devs. That would certainly help in solo queue scs.

The incentive to use guard is really simple: you have a higher chance of winning so you get more emblems.

[zumos2]

Spoiler:

I don't know why people say RoR isn't an hardcore game. It surely isn't the most hardcore game out there, but a game that requires hundreds of hours to take a single piece of equipment is certainly pretty hardcore (talking about Scs 2h weapons for example)

I've also never said in this thread anything about non-hardcore players not having enough stuff, but some things could certainly be improved.

I think most pug players play SCs due to having less time to play the game, so for example the time difference between gearing in RvR vs SCs could be improved. Gearing in Scs gear takes ages longer than gearing in RvR whether you play with pugs or not. I've yet to see a fully SC geared player, while fully geared RvR players are very common, especially Rdps.

Stopping to treat scenarios like a minigame would also help a lot. I know the game is centered around RvR and that is how it should be, but scenarios are no minigame nor should they be. in a PvP based MMO pve is the only minigame.

This post is pure gold.

I actually think that gearing is very friendly. Hit 30 or so. Do Ruin gear. Get rr30+ do beastlord. Should have enough gear to be competitive end game. Gearing isn't much of an issue. Where the "hardcore" elements come from are actually the class dependency. It's a very fine balance because it is what makes WAR/ROR great. How everyone can't do everything. However I do think tanks role and ability - Guard - is the only exception. There are two ways that IMO guard needs to be adjusted.

1) turned into some sort of aoe "aura". Either perm uptime, or... A cast with an icd. This makes it much easier to use in PUG/solo settings and also allows for the non tank to "obtain" protection by merely staying near the tanks. Again, this doesn't negatively impact top tier play, but does drastically improve QOL for all non tanks which WILL spill over into other classes doing their jobs.

2) guard given a selfish benefit. Such as more disrupt/Dodge/parry when under the effects of guard. That or some type of damage increase for themselves if they attack the same Target as their guardee.

Right now guard is the core of combat and massively crucial for DPS classes to live. Playing without guard basically makes the game largely unplayable... None of this (BTW) makes guard auto pilot it easy mode etc... But it does create a more fun version of a mechanic that is lacking ATM.

The issue isnt bad vs good players or any of that crap... I was playing today with one of the best and most "hardcore" Choppas I know... He was solo Queing because he is NA playing EU times and didn't have friends or guild on at that time (cause they play NA times)... He was complaining about the PUG SC even and how the tanks weren't using guard.... He sent me a tell, cause I was using guard, and we chatted and he logged off. Said it wasn't worth getting farmed cause his Choppa can't stand up to rdps in SCs without proper guard and heals... Anyways. That's the issue.

Not the player skill or hardcore vs casual... But Guard is too critical a mechanic and without it, the game becomes unplayable.

All this being... ROR will never grow in.population without modification to this... So ANY player can get on and not feel totally worthless cause they are playing at non peak times or without coordinating play times with friends...

If any post is pure gold it is this

I cannot believe how you say it has nothing to do with player skill when at the same time you are saying the game becomes unplayble because tanks are not using their most crucial ability. And if you queue solo as a mdps you know the chances are very low that you will get a guard. So either group up or play another role in solo scenarios. I simply never play a mdps in scenarios when I'm alone. I much rather play my healer because I'm a lot less depedent on my team.

In terms of your "adjustments" the first adjustment majorly would influence top tier play. It looks like you have actually no idea how much easier guarding is if it would be an AoE aura. The second adjustment could be possible, but I don't think tanks need any buffs as they are very strong already at this moment.

[Sigimund]

The incentive to guard is really simple but also not as successful as desired.

Some archetype limited daily quests for tanks to absorb damage from guard, healers to restore health and DPS to assist(?) could go a long way to encouraging teamwork.

[dansari]

@peter: I disagree because as it stands guard is clunky even for people running in premade groups - hell yesterday I had guard on a team member, had it broadcast through GES and everything, but turns out I didn't actually take any of the damage meant for him.

That means either of the three things:
1) you were not in guard range
2) another tank applied guard first and was taking the guard damage
3) you first applied guard but then removed it accidentally by pressing guard button three times instead of two. Note the response of this quick double tap is the only thing wrong with guard sometimes.

None of which are true since I was the only tank in the area and both GES and Enemy indicated guard was activated (my WP got jumped by two WEs in an sc). I don't necessarily care.. alpha and all... It was just an anecdotal example of a clunky ability.

[zumos2]

Spoiler:

@peter: I disagree because as it stands guard is clunky even for people running in premade groups - hell yesterday I had guard on a team member, had it broadcast through GES and everything, but turns out I didn't actually take any of the damage meant for him.

That means either of the three things:
1) you were not in guard range
2) another tank applied guard first and was taking the guard damage
3) you first applied guard but then removed it accidentally by pressing guard button three times instead of two. Note the response of this quick double tap is the only thing wrong with guard sometimes.

None of which are true since I was the only tank in the area and both GES and Enemy indicated guard was activated (my WP got jumped by two WEs in an sc). I don't necessarily care.. alpha and all... It was just an anecdotal example of a clunky ability.

I have been playing tank for a quite some time and have never seen guard not working when it was applied. It would be nice if it was recorded because now there isn't much to say.

[dansari]

Agreed, it was very odd. Unfortunately I don't record gameplay.

[Luth]

Detaunt has a higher priority than guard, which means that a guarded meleeDD can prevent his tank from taking lots of damage by simply using his aoe-detaunt.

If two tanks guard the same target, high likely the closest one gets the damage, e.g one tank is 25 feet away from the target and the other one 10 feet (not sure on this, needs to be tested).

[zumos2]

If two tanks guard the same target, high likely the closest one gets the damage, e.g one tank is 25 feet away from the target and the other one 10 feet (not sure on this, needs to be tested).

The person who applied guard first gets the damage.

[th3gatekeeper]

Spoiler:

That means either of the three things:
1) you were not in guard range
2) another tank applied guard first and was taking the guard damage
3) you first applied guard but then removed it accidentally by pressing guard button three times instead of two. Note the response of this quick double tap is the only thing wrong with guard sometimes.

None of which are true since I was the only tank in the area and both GES and Enemy indicated guard was activated (my WP got jumped by two WEs in an sc). I don't necessarily care.. alpha and all... It was just an anecdotal example of a clunky ability.

I have been playing tank for a quite some time and have never seen guard not working when it was applied. It would be nice if it was recorded because now there isn't much to say.

I have had several bugs with guard. Usually happens when we do multiple SCs. Ill usually re-apply guard after every zone in, just to be sure, but several times now I have seen it "bug" and the icon will have the "white" border showing its active. I will have the guard buff icon and my target will too, but when I click guard again it "casts" rather than undoes guard... Its very odd... Similar thing has happened with auras on my Chosen. My GUESS is its probably a UI bug - maybe akin to the "party bug" where it wont let you que as group for SCs... Just found out reload UI works for that.

Ive also had times where clicking and unclicking guard, sometimes with a little lag, it wont register or due to lag, I press again thinking it didnt apply, and it casts and undoes guard... I am definitely paranoid of guard (and dark protector on my BG) and am always recasting because its too critical to have on, and it has bugged enough to warrant me being paranoid....