[BG] Utility discussion

[Tesq]

i dont think it would be super but much balanced; tough ye i drag stuff from kobs as because my idea of cross balance regarding kobs/BG but nor i want another kobs nor i ask for perfect mirror; see runfang , i asked for a nerfed version but same type of tactic.
MId changes are all in lines with all other tanks avoidance. Change to pve skill to a rvr skill is life quality improvement. Dmg increase is meant to give an edge vs moral boost of chosen/BO if you prefer alpha strike but then no moral 4 for you.
Runfang nerfed mirror /channeling and wounds debuff/auto attak haste are meant tobe a kind of SM offensive build.

A lot of different set up tough none of these can be mixed.

[anarchypark]

Destro tanks... get rid of your morale pump then talk about balances between tanks

[Daknallbomb]

Destro tanks... get rid of your morale pump then talk about balances between tanks

Www.getbetterinfos.com
Www.nonsense.de

( i bet my **** Post is better)

[Bozzax]

Without adding kill power to BGs increase the value of having one in your group (SnB BGs as well which I think is being overlooked).

Feeding on Weakness
Increase the toughness buff on DP (10s CD possibly)

• 25 hate 75 toughness
  50 hate 150 toughness
  75 hate 225 toughness
  100 hate 300 toughness

Or

Spoiler:

Keep the toughness buff and add a secondary wounds buff for DP

Crush Vitality tactic
AA -20% increased to AA -40% (approx -6% > -12% dps) as it "only" affect melee and currently is lacklustre being 25% on hit

Auto Attack Haste
Posted on April 9, 2010 by Vauleen

Spoiler:

Looks like Mythic will be changing the current way that auto attack haste works in Warhammer. The following is taken from the offical forums:

NateL wrote:
There’s been some heightened concern regarding Autoattack Speed modifiers recently, so we’d like to share one of the changes which will be in patch 1.3.5. We’re adjusting the manner in which these modifiers are calculated to bring them back in line, while still ensuring that they remain useful and valuable.

Currently, Autoattack Speed bonuses are a direct modifier to your swing time; for example, a 50% bonus would literally reduce your swing time by 50%, resulting in twice as many attacks (or “100% more attacks”). Instead, these modifiers are being changed to affect the number of attacks – in other words, a 50% bonus will now give you 50% more attacks. By the same token, please be aware that the numerical values of Autoattack Speed -debuffs- have been reduced as a part of this change, but this simply ensures that their overall effectiveness remains unchanged. As an example, a “50% debuff” would previously have resulted in the victim getting 33% fewer attacks, so it will now simply be displayed as a “33% debuff”.

I know that this is a “math-y” change and can be a bit unclear, so let me provide a quick example which may make it more understandable. Let’s say you had a weapon with a 3.0s swing time, and you had a 50% Autoattack Speed bonus. Previously, this would have given you a 50% reduction in your attack speed, reducing that 3.0s to 1.5s (or twice as many attacks). After this change in 1.3.5, that same 50% bonus to your 3.0s weapon will give you 50% more attacks, which will reduce your swing time to 2.0s. Likewise, a 75% bonus would previously had reduced a 3.0s speed down to 0.75s, whereas after the change, it will give you 75% more attacks (or a 1.7s swing time). As you see, this isn’t a -huge- change, but rather a very targeted adjustment which brings this bonus back to a level that we’re more comfortable with.

Going forward in the future, we plan to individually review all abilities, tactics, items, etc. which grant Autoattack Speed bonuses, and determine whether their specific values are appropriate. This change is a necessary first step before we drill down to that level of detail, since all the spot changes in the world wouldn’t help until the underlying system itself was fixed.

Personally I'd much rather see these underperforming aspects of BGs (SnB actually worse atm) being tweaked/beefed instead of "destroying the coolness of the class" making it a a poor mans KOTBs.

If above isn't enough I'd consider this

Spoiler:

Elite Training
Make it a core ability

Choking Fury
Bump to 10pts

Mind Killer
Move to 6pts and change 3x40 to 1x120 Will power debuff

[Aurandilaz]

Destro tanks... get rid of your morale pump then talk about balances between tanks

I didn't realize BGs were favoured by Warbands because of their fast morale pumps.... oh wait, they don't have such luxuries and our last actual warband-orientated guild Phalanx doesn't even seem to have BGs in their WB roster. (because they want chosen and blorcs with their faster M4s)

[anarchypark]

I mean Destro wants their BG par with morale pumping other tanks, without morale pump.
To compete WB slot.

It would be massively overpowered and a must have. To reiterate, the kotbs/chosen is NOT a benchmark and the game will not be power creeped by dragging classes up to the current overpowered one's.

like dev said you set bar too high.
bring it down by getting rid of all morale pumps from game
then let's talk about balances of 6 tanks

[roadkillrobin]

I mean Destro wants their BG par with morale pumping other tanks, without morale pump.
To compete WB slot.

It would be massively overpowered and a must have. To reiterate, the kotbs/chosen is NOT a benchmark and the game will not be power creeped by dragging classes up to the current overpowered one's.

like dev said you set bar too high.
bring it down by getting rid of all morale pumps from game
then let's talk about balances of 6 tanks

For internal ballance this would work, but as for extrenal ballance this would tip all aspect of the game massivly into Orders favour of every single aspect of the game. It doesn't work like that, ballance is not built upon a archetypee vs archetype basis, morales and tactics aswell as abillties are spread out over all classes not just tanks. The only way to fix this problem without doing a complete reedesign of every single class is by buffing BG.

[Karast]

Is your entire point that Mara / Chosen have too much?

I mean you could remove their wounds debuffs, even the toughness debuffs, and they would still be more than viable because of the massive toolboxes of other tools they already have. Stagger, pull, AoE KD, biggest armor debuff, longest super punt, one of the best self heals in the game, best armor ignore tactic in the game.

You could gut those debuffs and they'd still be extremely strong. That's the entire point around them being the problem.

I didnt follow you 100% here. You are using "their" to describe the Mara/Chosen?

Obviously Mara is very strong and has a great toolkit... So does the Chosen. I dont want to get into a "nerf" thread... Also if you merely nerfed these two, now you have balance with order vs destro etc... I dont think the solution is to start nerfing other classes because that is like pulling on a thread and who knows how big an impact that will have..

My point is the benefits of a BG are "overlapped" with a Mara/Chosen so that the value of a BG is moot.

I liked what Tesq said on the last page. I wish he could summarize things more as he has some REALLY good points and I feel they are lost in too much text (I have the same problem).

I think that some of the "party benefits" a BG brings needs to be diverse from the Mara/Chosen combo. You get a SnB Chosen who grabs KD + Super Punt paired with a Savagery Mara and what can the BG add to that party?.... Thats my point...

But isn't the problem then that Mara / Chosen bring too much. You got 2 careers that dominate the comp. They completely dominate every premade team and comp.

You can't buff your way out of this. It never worked on live. They just made the situation worse. If careers are just completely outperforming their counterparts they got to take a hit.

Get rid of chosen super punt, morale tactic, and give a BG a 2h KD and you have just evened it up a lot. Trim down on mara debuffs, move the wounds debuff deeper in and make it a real investment, and or tactical choice between it and the heal debuff, and then you'd see a much more balanced comp destro side when it comes to tanks and mdps.

Order has its own bug bears that can be address on knight. Give orders super punt, stagger, and good aoe snares to the aura tank makes it hard to run without one.

You want more diverse tools for the BG to add onto the current mara / chosen tool set. But unless if they completely break the game what kind of tool set is going to really compete with double heal debuff coverage, perma wounds / toughness debuffs, pull / super punt, stagger, a massive armor debuff, and good KD's? There isn't really much left to make into a niche. They got all the bases covered.

People have gotten used to the idea that every class should have everything. It doesn't need to be that way.

[Karast]

I mean Destro wants their BG par with morale pumping other tanks, without morale pump.
To compete WB slot.

It would be massively overpowered and a must have. To reiterate, the kotbs/chosen is NOT a benchmark and the game will not be power creeped by dragging classes up to the current overpowered one's.

like dev said you set bar too high.
bring it down by getting rid of all morale pumps from game
then let's talk about balances of 6 tanks

For internal ballance this would work, but as for extrenal ballance this would tip all aspect of the game massivly into Orders favour of every single aspect of the game. It doesn't work like that, ballance is not built upon a archetypee vs archetype basis, morales and tactics aswell as abillties are spread out over all classes not just tanks. The only way to fix this problem without doing a complete reedesign of every single class is by buffing BG.

Can you actually provide examples of this in function.

There is no order counter for the morale pump tactics. Abilities like on Shaman we have our own versions of but for the tactics we don't.

There is not an effective comp counter. Heck if you are so worried about the knight M4 strip. Why don't we just make the BO version identical. Solve that non existant problem, and we can remove some heavily imbalanced tactics from the game.

[th3gatekeeper]

I mean Destro wants their BG par with morale pumping other tanks, without morale pump.
To compete WB slot.

It would be massively overpowered and a must have. To reiterate, the kotbs/chosen is NOT a benchmark and the game will not be power creeped by dragging classes up to the current overpowered one's.

like dev said you set bar too high.
bring it down by getting rid of all morale pumps from game
then let's talk about balances of 6 tanks

For internal ballance this would work, but as for extrenal ballance this would tip all aspect of the game massivly into Orders favour of every single aspect of the game. It doesn't work like that, ballance is not built upon a archetypee vs archetype basis, morales and tactics aswell as abillties are spread out over all classes not just tanks. The only way to fix this problem without doing a complete reedesign of every single class is by buffing BG.

Yeah, this is where I stand as well. I am not opposed to removing morale pumps, but now you have tilted the game in Order favor... This would require some major adjustments to many classes on many sides.

I would be 100% onboard with making the Chosen's Super Punt a 2H only tactic. Atleast this would split up Super Punt and Morale Pump. Which would be 1 good step towards "balance" it seems.

Morale gain was already nerfed based on many factors like population.
https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... _Mechanics

"Morale
Morale regenerates at 10 points per second. The rate of Morale regeneration is further increased by the following factors:

Number of players in your group - Number of enemies nearby (bonus begins at 18 enemies and caps at 72 enemies)
The above factors are multiplicative, with the maximum scaler being x3.6 for 36 morale per second. No bonus will be received for being solo in a field of enemies, nor will a bonus be received for having a group with less than 18 enemies in range."

So morale pumps were already nerfed from LIVE.

The issue is, if you start nerfing Mara/Chosen - but dont touch the WL/Knight... to try and make room for the BG, you created an order vs destro balance issue. I would rather look at what the Mara/Chosen offer and where it overlaps with the BG and adjust the BG so the similar things BG offers to Mara/Chosen are not the "free" benefits to the BG...

This way, BG (regardless of spec) brings several unique tools to the table.


FYI - I am NOT saying "give BG everything". I am saying look at the overlap, readjust the ONE class so it brings different things to the table than Mara/Chosen. Especially looking at the Mara...