Considering the single target Magus post the changes to Bolt of Change

[Tesq]

What exactly was the purpose of the BoC swap with Firestorm in Havoc tree?

Changes like that one gimp the class in the worst way possible, since a lot of builds required it to be exactly where it was...

BoC is excellent, and Firestorm is ****.
That's why BoC was swapped to 13 points in havoc tree.

well with the 40% dmg bonus from turret firestorm is not that bad, in dmg but range suck.... should be 30 feet.

[Warpes]

What exactly was the purpose of the BoC swap with Firestorm in Havoc tree?

Changes like that one gimp the class in the worst way possible, since a lot of builds required it to be exactly where it was...

BoC is excellent, and Firestorm is ****.
That's why BoC was swapped to 13 points in havoc tree.

So let me see if I understand this then. I haven't been around for about 10 months so maybe I'm getting the order or line of thinking wrong here?...

Magus/Engi considered "weak" by some >> BoC/Snipe CD buffed, pets buffed, stacks buffed >> Magus/Engi considered strong... several builds on both classes nerfed/removed as a result (which should never be the option for balance in this case) >> BoC/Snipe CD reverted anyway.

Is that about the jist of it?

I feel like I warned people that exactly this sort of thing was going to happen... back in T3 when everyone started looking to tweak both classes... saying that unnecessary buffs would occur, and as a result even worse unnecessary nerfs would happen, and some of the buffs probably would also end up being reverted anyway.

I also said that BoC/Snipe are not end all be all of both classes, and looking to buff these either directly or indirectly would push both classes in the wrong direction. And the end result is buffs, people STILL focusing on BoC/Snipe... and then many builds becoming worthless, particularly for Magus?

This was not a good change.

[anarchypark]

Who the hell dies to frf? Do you even play the class? There were NO complaints re magus st, and experienced magi are saying the 5sec should be reinstated, but let's ignore that coz lol undefendable frf!

Tanks avoidance happens a lot more at low hp, specially in high block/parry spec
cuz it's filling % values before zero hp I guess
wait until their hp goes down to 30% then snipe them with undefendable spam b4 he get heals
same thing goes with high disrupt healers
It completely ruins their defensive investment where I found fun ( and hate when I play tank )
with this buff of 8 stacks, 5sec CD BoC/snipe will be too strong
do magus/engi need more buff? they need some nuff imo

[Warpes]

do magus/engi need more buff? they need some nuff imo

As far as I'm concerned they only need a nerf and some tweaks at this point.

And this is coming from someone who's favorite classes are both Magus and Engi, on live and on here. And I'd rather see them both be in a good spot, balanced and neither underpowered nor overpowered. Or even back in an "underdog" spot if it means old trees...

Maybe thats a lot to ask, but reasonably balancing them to "close enough" at this point would be simple, imo...

1) Put BoC/Snipe back in their original tree locations.
2) Reduce max pet stacks by 2, keeping damage per stack the same (nerf to overall damage)
3) Increase 'effectiveness' of certain dots via duration reduction and/or CD reduction, but keeping total damage the same
4) Call it a day.

The first 2 are easy, #3 might take a bit. But tweaking dots appropriately would increase speed of damage (burst per tick), makes certain ones more of a priority to cleanse, and also more difficult to cleanse if more easily reapplied.

And any advantage Engi might have right now will be reduced by Phos Shells being put back where they belong, as well as each new additional gear set coming out. Since the main reason Engi were considered "weak" in T4 on live, but not here, is due to the amount of armor value distributed out on average/less gear sets vs the amount or type of offensive stats Engi gets to deal with them (similar to WL, hmm..)

#1 should also be enough to satisfy those who want 5s BoC/Snipe CDs, I hope?

[peterthepan3]

I think the fact that the Magus was used by several people in the last few months as a potential filler for a SH/Sorc (assuming class is well played) - thanks to a 5-second BoC - is evidence that a reliable and short CD nuke helped the ST DPS spec enormously.

Also the firestorm/boc replacement really does not make a difference in high rr as, even on live, you would maximise your Havoc tree, while taking IFOC, to incr your boc/mbf/svf/dots. Sure, my solo build has suffered (I spent most of my time dueling/soloing on Magus in live), but so be it. Firestorm damage is crap, so I again question the extent to which you have played your magus against competent players, Tesq (no offence btw, firestorm is okay for clearing trash or against level 32 dps 2h ibs, but essence lash will provide you with better dmg)

tldr - 5 seconds on our main nuke allowed us to effectively maintain strong pressure, despite our immobility. When played in the hands of a capable player, this was more than evident. It wasn't overperforming, hence why there were no complaints re magus st dps (none from people who ought to be taken seriously, anyway). Engi is a different ball game altogether.

I think people fail to realise how relatively easy it is to play a Sorcerer, compared to capitalising on a Magus - just to achieve slightly worse results, at a larger range. Why do some people still believe that the Magus should not function as a RDPS?

[Warpes]

I think the point that you're missing here, is that I'm aiming to have the same results - which is being a very viable rdps in premades, or where ever - but by going down the original path Magus was intended (entire rotation being equally potent, including dots). Not one where they revolve mostly around 1 singular ability - and spamming it.

For a full on ST spec yes, you could maximize Havoc. But many other builds now suffer, including the dueling spec (also spent roughly 80% of the time using it on live. cus lets face it, its dope), which can also very well be used in premades with decent damage, and a bit more utility.

Likewise if it doesn't make a difference one way or the other, would it not make more sense to put BoC/Snipe back where they were? Allowing for more diversity and fun builds?

Would be inclined to agree too with Sorc vs Magus ease of use. Sorc actually becomes boring in comparison, due to lack of challenge/satisfaction. And the fact that Firestorm is basically useless. It's fun... and I wish it didn't suck, I really do. But it does.

[peterthepan3]

I do agree with you, and think it would be cool to see the Magus as a potent DoT caster (the strongest dot caster, which atm belongs to DPS AM). I even made a suggestion to make MBF insta with this in mind. But that itself is a huge undertaking, given how dots function atm, and how dot classes, in general, are weak against cleanse comps - hence why I am somewhat eager to hold onto BoC 5 secs as it did allow us to function as a quasidps replacement. Also, I view Changing as the dot spec, while Havoc should be the nuke spec with some reliance on dots: I always envisioned the Magus similar to the WOW Warlock in this regard, with affliction = changing (without the selfheal), destro = havoc, etc.

In retrospect, I do agree that BoC being easier to get did allow for a cool variety of different specs, and that the change to 13pt wasn't really needed.

[Whitesands]

While it would be great to see Magi dots improved, along with other things related to the class. The thrust of this thread is narrow. It is concerned with the single target mastery and BoC status. Under current protocols, the single target magi is not competitive compared with other RDPS. During the 5 second cool down BoC phase of things, the Magi (and Engi) were able to occupy a position that allowed them to be competitive, a threat and desired by groups. The reversion to the 10 second cool down returned the single target magi to inferior status: and again a target for renown, rather than a contributor to its side's success. The developers are working hard to create a better product than what was. This is clear. The reversion to the 10 second cool down deserved time to be tested and judged when taken in with all the other changes made to the class. That time has passed and what is now also clear is that the single target magi needs its signature ability to be something other than an aside. The 5 second cool down of BoC should be returned.

[peterthepan3]

While it would be great to see Magi dots improved, along with other things related to the class. The thrust of this thread is narrow. It is concerned with the single target mastery and BoC status. Under current protocols, the single target magi is not competitive compared with other RDPS. During the 5 second cool down BoC phase of things, the Magi (and Engi) were able to occupy a position that allowed them to be competitive, a threat and desired by groups. The reversion to the 10 second cool down returned the single target magi to inferior status: and again a target for renown, rather than a contributor to its side's success. The developers are working hard to create a better product than what was. This is clear. The reversion to the 10 second cool down deserved time to be tested and judged when taken in with all the other changes made to the class. That time has passed and what is now also clear is that the single target magi needs its signature ability to be something other than an aside. The 5 second cool down of BoC should be returned.

Well summarised.

[Tesq]

@peter never said that is good as a bw annihilate i said is not tha bad in dmg(should not be good as annihilte regardless is not a melee channeling is a ranged channeling (the comparison should be near rain of fire for exemple not annihilate). Wont kill a premade for sure ....aoe need to be stacked by multiple classes anyway, also said range(meant radius indeed) suck which is quite an issue since is an aoe skill. (and so not mean to be used in st assist). Would be cool be able to stack it above a dissovling mist if the spec optons were easier.