Changelog 25/11/16

[theoddone]

So much bs, you think war is the only game to have issues ? there are gaming devs that have been in the industry for decades that cannot make a system that works right, there is no perfect system, there is no fix, especially for zerging, ppl will always blob together for safety nothing will change this, everything has been tried before, nobody played eso where aoe caps where always spoken about ? they had aoe caps and they didnt, nothing really changed.
You cannot reinvent the wheel so to speak, games like this with mass pvp will always have issues, i really wish instead of thinking you all have the answers just remember what we loved about AOR and focused on improving that instead of turning ROR into a completely different game, we are all here because of AOR, we get barely any new players, drastic changes (aoe caps etc etc) does more bad then good.

You cannot change/fix zerging !!!

I agree with this so much, not that everything should be the same, but regarding the zerg.

Open RvR is chaotic and unpredictable. That is the whole charm of it. That around every corner there might be someone waiting. Sometimes you outnumber them and sometimes they outnumber you. The unpredictability is what makes it epic. In my opinion, the zerg is a vital part of the open RvR experience. If I want equal numbers I'll join a scenario or something instanced.

The balance between the two realms tend to switch and get sorted with time. Instead of giving players a helping hand mechanic, they should learn to help themselves. Adapt, organize and improve. As for the zerging side getting better and unfair rewards. There are not enough purple bags or renown ranks in this game to make people better by just staring at a keep door.

[bloodi]

So to combat 200% AoO we should adapt, organize and improve and the chaotic nature of Orvr cannot be changed but somehow after the change that made funneling way harder, destruction got a huge boost in pop (that of course is not a change).

I would say there was nothing unpredictable or chaotic about that, it was expected, people went for the easy way.

I seriously dont know if you think everyone is dumb and believes that **** or if you are dumb enough to believe them yourselves.

[Marsares]

I was once super enthusiastic as you are and then i realised you cannot stop players from doing what they want to do, this isnt stupidity at all its realistic (being realistic in life will get you further then being foolish), it would be stupid to think you can change someones mentality when there whole reason to play is to zerg/blob.

Sure there is a better rvr system then what there was in AOR but it will never stop or fix zerg issues, its an endless problem and in the end change after change after change the game has evolved to be nothing like AOR and the pop will shrink (pop is already suffering fyi, there were times when 1.2-1.4k players were online, you are lucky to see 1k player now).

Well yes, I am a glass is half full type of guy and always enthusiastic, as that is what creates change and the desire to improve.

I don't disagree with you that the mentality of people is to zerg/blob, I do disagree that that is their whole reason. People blob as it gives the most reward, for the fewest risk. People are freakishly squeamish about dying in a virtual game I find.

You change that risk/reward ratio, people will be less inclined to zerg. Is there a system that is going to totally break up the zerg? Of course not, people are people and most are by nature sheep-like in their behaviour and you cannot change personality overnight. Neither should we have a system that breaks a zerg completely, a zerg is an integral and important part of the game, but it should not be the dominant way of playing and it certainly shouldn't be rewarded as such.

On your note about population drops... you are making a string of assumptions there, which none of us can validate, accept some server admin. You state that only old AOR people play the game, that they only do so because they loved how AOR was and that people are leaving because they hate the current game-play.

You may be right, you may be wrong. My experience tells me different. We have a sizeable number of people in the guild who never played AOR, most that did play AOR do not do so because it was so good but because of nostalgia and because there is no other real RvR game out there, and most of the guildies that left did not do so because they hate the game-play, but because they are 50+ and want new content.

Obviously, your experience may be different.

[Morf]

Well yes, I am a glass is half full type of guy and always enthusiastic, as that is what creates change and the desire to improve.

I don't disagree with you that the mentality of people is to zerg/blob, I do disagree that that is their whole reason. People blob as it gives the most reward, for the fewest risk. People are freakishly squeamish about dying in a virtual game I find.

You change that risk/reward ratio, people will be less inclined to zerg. Is there a system that is going to totally break up the zerg? Of course not, people are people and most are by nature sheep-like in their behaviour and you cannot change personality overnight. Neither should we have a system that breaks a zerg completely, a zerg is an integral and important part of the game, but it should not be the dominant way of playing and it certainly shouldn't be rewarded as such.

Right so dont u think game devs with decades of experience havent tried to tackle this issue before ? its the nature of these type of games, all these suggestions are rubbish, i have seen myself in ESO how change after change done nothing to stop ppl from blobbing and in most cases it made things even worse.
Until everyone realises you cannot stop ppl from zerging/blobbing the better because soon this game will be unrecognisable and the problem still exists.
Most suggestions to counter the zerg further increases the need to zerg, it may sound like a good idea but it doesnt work out, you penalise zerging/blobbing and ppl just do it even more or you end up with situations like we had some time ago where wb's were getting blown up instantly by 2 aoe cannons, by all means go ahead and try **** but i guarentee pop will carry on taking hits and the same problems will still exist.

On your note about population drops... you are making a string of assumptions there, which none of us can validate, accept some server admin. You state that only old AOR people play the game, that they only do so because they loved how AOR was and that people are leaving because they hate the current game-play.

You may be right, you may be wrong. My experience tells me different. We have a sizeable number of people in the guild who never played AOR, most that did play AOR do not do so because it was so good but because of nostalgia and because there is no other real RvR game out there, and most of the guildies that left did not do so because they hate the game-play, but because they are 50+ and want new content.

Obviously, your experience may be different.

You are right i have no prove that the large amount of changes are the cause of pop drop but from the ppl i know many have hugely cut down on there playing time due to certain changes and some given up all together, this is by no means a dig at the developers, as i have said before i have nothing but respect for them it is a **** hard job that requires alot of work.
You said it yourself that some ppl you know play for nostalgia purposes so if they log in and dont get that same feeling they will simply not login anymore, this is the case for some ppl at the moment.

[Azarael]

It's always the same...

Game devs with "decades" of experience. Whoop de doo! While I doubt you can find anyone with "decades of experience" designing RvR games specifically, guess what professional game devs want?

To get paid and not to get fired.

Do you think professional game devs have such incredible control over their games that they have the leeway to try whatever they want with a playerbase, and issue patch after patch after patch in quick succession to refine an entire system, like we do here? God no. They're hamstrung, as has been said multiple times, by orders from above, and most likely those orders from above are coming from corporate or publishers who are reading tears on the game's forums and watching falling subscriber numbers and ordering their subordinates not to engage in any kind of upheaval or transition state which could threaten numbers further. Add in the effect of internal bureaucracy, priorities and directions from management and the fact that designers and the people responsible for implementation, either code or art, are usually different people...

You saw the result of this with WP and DoK on live. They had 5 years to try to make that class work in melee. What did these professionals end up doing? Making them a backline healer. Experience is just that: experience. It doesn't make you right, it doesn't make you infallible, it is by NO MEANS the only factor in development and it sure as hell isn't enough to carry an argument on its own.

Secondly, you should know that when you're talking to devs, you're talking to people who will take "You can't / will never stop X" as a challenge. The more you say it's unsolvable, the more I will push back and devote resources to solving the problem. This is a game, not bloody quantum physics.

Thirdly... if the argument is coming down to purism again (and you admitted it multiple times), please spare me. You know it doesn't get anywhere with me. If you're going to reply by talking about the risk of not being pure, again, don't. Our stance was taken a long time ago, it's written in the rules and at this point I'm prepared to instruct the mods to wipe any post which assumes that we don't know that purists will be dissatisfied if the game changes in any manner they don't like. Consider the point well and truly taken, as it was weeks ago.

[Telen]

Remove AOE caps and Id just play my magus nothing else. Some class would become so unbalanced it would make the old EU city bombing look tame.

[seara]

You saw the result of this with WP and DoK on live. They had 5 years to try to make that class work in melee. What did these professionals end up doing? Making them a backline healer.

No they did not, they made them frontline healers who gained healing being in the frey. They could in downtime assist with AOE damage or help debuff enemy targets, for faster downing enemies.

Unlike AM/shaman/Zealot/RP they dont have RDPS assist, which can be used both during downtime or with uptime if being pressured hard enouth and being skilled.

[Sigimund]

they made them frontline healers who gained healing being in the frey. They could in downtime assist with AOE damage or help debuff enemy targets, for faster downing enemies.

They may have wanted to. The practical reality was quite different. This does describe the current absolution/devotion stance-dancing quite well though.

[seara]

They may have wanted to. The practical reality was quite different.

No stop it, if you are quoting my sentence, it is litterally just assisting. This was reality for any above avg. person.

Smite, RS tact, old stance dancing, for AOE and a bit of range
WoG, castigation, SF, DS, DA ect. ect. for melee assist for quick downtime (it is needed for skilled groups)

[Haojin]

I'll make a huge post again Aza, before of that:

1-I agree with Morf's points. Human nature can't be tamed, especialy in open-pvp games. I'm saying this with 16-17 year mmorpg experience. a friendly reminder, whenever you "punish" instead of "fix" you'll lose players. [ Example: Porn Factory not playing anymore and i see less people on T4 these days. ]

2-Please define "zerg" and "blob". New cannon/aoe rework system punishes "blob" not "zerg". Here whats happening atm:

Scenario 1: If you're an attacker whole realm have to protect ram and sieges for keep assault. After that whole realm aka zerg have to use brute force to takedown keep. There is no way to take a keep with equal numbers. This is the destiny of game.

Scenario 2: If you're a defender, you need to camp/zerg the BO's which is close to keep for resource flow. This is happening especially in CW, KV, Eataine.

Suggestion 1: Make the BO's really hard, maybe a weak version of keep lord with loads of npcs. BO's should be tagged by 6 people for every 5-10 min, otherwise it should burn itself.

Suggestion 2: If you want to split more people on the lake, make the resources carried by 6 or 12 man [ deliver bonus should be increased ]. Atm 2 people can do the whole resource carry/taking BO job.

Suggestion 3: Add the contribution connected carrying resources-tagging BO's.

I agree my suggestions got weak spots but playing with numbers won't split the zerg, touching map is.

Cannons/Aoe rework will only change the process not the main design "Resource Flow - Protecting Siege " and organized guilds will be more dominant than ever. We already got couple of solutions to counter AoE rework which is impossible to execute by pugs.

3- Some map desings and BO's forces people to blob even they want to spread out, we'll see huge whine thread after you rework aoe. For example: IH in KV , GK in TM , DV in TM , Manor in Eataine, Armory in Praag, Manor in Reikland, Barracks in Caledor.

4-Allowing gold trade between realms is completely a joke if you want to stop xrealming. You should ban this for the beginning.

5- Main problem of RVR is community and population based, RoR team should do something about it.

Some feedback for RvR activity [ a fresh thread ] , you can understand why somedays are destro zerging some days are order:

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18646

Some suggestions from RvR Design thread about community issues:

Spoiler:

2-Community Issues

a-Main problem of RVR "mostly" community related ( both old and new system ). Most of RVR players are casuals and they dont want to take initiative and they don't know what they gonna do ( Protecting BO's, Gathering Resources, Bringing Siege ect). If you want to see fully working RVR system, both realms needs practice.

Suggestion 5: Maybe you can set some GM's for weekly RVR events [maybe 2 day in a week] .
Example:viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14599

The whole new system is strange for everyone, learning with fun will stop whining i hope.

b- The whole RVR system is all about attacking or defending. What if both sides prefers defending keeps or meaningless skirmish between warcamps ? RVR motivation will be lost [Example: Porn Factory not making warbands anymore. ]

Suggestion 6: If one sides keep hits level X, they have to hit enemies outer door in every X minutes, otherwise high level keep loses all rank and gives the stars opposite realm. This may encourage people to attack than defend.