[SLAYER] What would make Giantslayer Tree useful again?

[Azygous]

After the slayer SL nerf -now useless in 6mans- and a possible ID future nerf, it basically it comes down to this:

Why would any 6man pick a Troll/Giant Slayer over a WL?

A premade may pick a WL over a slayer because:

1.Slayer is much squisher since you have to be full rage with the tactic . Taking breaking point on top of power through just makes you paper.

2.WL is superior in gap closing and target pulling. Also, he can pounce on a distant target to shake off any mdps on him.

3.WL can simply run off to drop the heat while his pet is still doing the damage.

4.The slayer 50% autoattack speed tactic that requires rage to get 50% and thus makes you squishy. A WL tactic can achieve the same thing simply by having the pet up.

5.A WL Coord strike does a base damage of 1180 in this build http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=wl; ... ;;0:0:0:0: and assuming the pet is on the target-almost always is- and has a 10s CD . This is of course without calculating the various buffs/stats/resistances. The biggest hitter for a slayer is the Deathblow=604 . A 50% increase via rage only makes it 906, I think. It has a 30s cd and you need to sacrifice a tactic to drop it to around 22.5s .

Include the 50% crit damage tactic for the WL+the self buff dmg increase by 25% and arguably the WL burst and ST damage might be higher than a slayer.

Why a 6man may favor a slayer over a WL:
1.Slayer has incoming heal debuff -but so does a SW-. WL has outgoing only.

2.Rampage ignores block/parry +50% parry/block reduc of his target with numbing strike vs a WL armor debuff, AA speed debuff and a partial armor bypass backstab.

3.If the premade kills the WL pet, the damage is significantly hampered unless he usually slots Revenge which gives him a 50% damage increase if the pet dies for 10s.

Overall, I think the WL does a significant ST burst damage -some people claim it's the highest in the game- without the risks and sacrifices the slayer has to take and even then I'm not sure the damage output of the slayer will be as high given how hard Coord Strike hits every 10s + 25% dmg self buff the WL has access to.

That basically makes a 2h Slayer very much less desirable than a WL or even a SW. Keeping that in mind, the tree must be reworked to make the 2h Slayer just as valuable as a WL in 6mans since it's whole purpose is for small scale fights.

[blaqwar]

Some details that you seem to be unaware of about WLs:

- As you point out the pet is a huge part of WLs damage but it can be killed. The cooldown for resummoning it is 15 seconds, costs 55 AP and has a cast time. During the CD the WL himself is severely nerfed even with Revenge (CS hits for nothing, no extra target for Pack Assault, no pet based CC, you lose the precious 50% crit dmg bonus, etc.). And believe me, the pet is easy to kill. If a pet-less WL was any good with Revenge, people would be running Loner instead.
- WL AP costs are really high. The damage on abilities is high as well, which means that the career is heavily reliant on burst, as you point out. The AP costs can only be somewhat covered by other careers in the group. Mobile on the way in, burst, hope you can get out before you die. Sustained combat is not what WL does, unlike Slayer.
- No heal debuff is huge. The armor debuff is an asset for sure, but I'd argue that a heal debuff is better at this stage of the game, especially if the devs' keep true to their promise to not allow armor to ever be overstacked. And no, we're not killing tanks and DoK/WP healers are getting their armor nerfed, armor debuff will lose value.
- And no, sorry but you can't just run out as a WL and leave your pet "to do the damage" because even if the damage would be any good without your active involvement (it drops off), you're just asking for it to be killed. You don't want that.

I still see plenty of weakness and benefits of running either in your setup, depending on your group comp. Slayers however, can fill more niches than a WL can in my opinion. The gap in burst is not that high and the sustained damage difference more than makes up for it. It feels like Slayers are more flexible even with the SL nerf, especially with the WL losing some of their famed mobility recently.

[Karast]

After the slayer SL nerf -now useless in 6mans- and a possible ID future nerf, it basically it comes down to this:

Why would any 6man pick a Troll/Giant Slayer over a WL?

You can't shut down a slayer by killing the pet.

Also even with the nerf to SL. The autoattack tactic, and the way flurry is working, means that proc setups still dominate and SL is much better at pumping out procs than a WL is, unfortunate but true. You also have devastate which has truly massive bursting potential.

The reason slayer is good goes beyond SL, and ID.

But I think it would be a pretty reasonable match up. WL does have the nice armor debuff, the good heal debuff that double dok has issues cleansing (one of the few order heal debuffs they can't AoE cleanse!), and the M1 root if you run it.

[Luth]

4.The slayer 50% autoattack speed tactic that requires rage to get 50% and thus makes you squishy. A WL tactic can achieve the same thing simply by having the pet up.

The WLs increased AA speed is bound to the "trained to hunt" stance, not to the pet. The 50% increased crit damage is dependant on the pet though.

[Kali14]

Slayer to make any normal damages by great weapon must use Power Through tactic and finally go in berserk.
But then first worst sorcerer killing me. Well this can be cheanged only by better detaunt like 10 sec on 20 sec CD, so I can normal play and try ignore sorc when already hit someone another. This not make skaven spec much OP.

[Toldavf]

If you are close enough to detaunt a sorc you should have enervating blow on it really

[Azygous]

[/quote]

You can't shut down a slayer by killing the pet.

Also even with the nerf to SL. The autoattack tactic, and the way flurry is working, means that proc setups still dominate and SL is much better at pumping out procs than a WL is, unfortunate but true. You also have devastate which has truly massive bursting potential. etc .[/quote]

I don't think people spam flurry coz of the AP consumption and poor damage return. After the ID nerf, I don't think the skaven slayer is gonna be of any use when focusing a single target especially not with flurry.

As for the pet getting killed, you still can do decent damage when it's dead and just resummon it when the CD is back up and you have your damage back. Overall, the burst is still better than a slayer. Not convinced that WL is weaker than a slayer vs single target otherwise premades would be running skaven slayer+ giant slayer slayer instead of a Skaven slayer/WL one all the time.

Overall, WL is still better than a giant tree Slayer dmg wise and Slayer is supposed to be all about damage given the sacrifices and risks taken. Seems like High risk and moderate rewards.

[Azygous]

Some details that you seem to be unaware of about WLs:

- As you point out the pet is a huge part of WLs damage but it can be killed. The cooldown for resummoning it is 15 seconds, costs 55 AP and has a cast time. During the CD the WL himself is severely nerfed even with Revenge (CS hits for nothing, no extra target for Pack Assault, no pet based CC, you lose the precious 50% crit dmg bonus, etc.). And believe me, the pet is easy to kill. If a pet-less WL was any good with Revenge, people would be running Loner instead.
- WL AP costs are really high. The damage on abilities is high as well, which means that the career is heavily reliant on burst, as you point out. The AP costs can only be somewhat covered by other careers in the group. Mobile on the way in, burst, hope you can get out before you die. Sustained combat is not what WL does, unlike Slayer.
- No heal debuff is huge. The armor debuff is an asset for sure, but I'd argue that a heal debuff is better at this stage of the game, especially if the devs' keep true to their promise to not allow armor to ever be overstacked. And no, we're not killing tanks and DoK/WP healers are getting their armor nerfed, armor debuff will lose value.
- And no, sorry but you can't just run out as a WL and leave your pet "to do the damage" because even if the damage would be any good without your active involvement (it drops off), you're just asking for it to be killed. You don't want that.

I still see plenty of weakness and benefits of running either in your setup, depending on your group comp. Slayers however, can fill more niches than a WL can in my opinion. The gap in burst is not that high and the sustained damage difference more than makes up for it. It feels like Slayers are more flexible even with the SL nerf, especially with the WL losing some of their famed mobility recently.

1.Yea I know CS hits for nothing without the pet given the description . You still have Sundering chop to bypass armor, morales and all your other abilities when your pet is dead. You can resume CS when its up again+the 50% damage boost from your pet's death+25% damage boost from flanking+15% damage from the flanking tactic -dunno if it stacks- does help so it's not doom and gloom if your pet dies. When you have 2 WL is even more of a hassle for the mdps to run after 2 pets while ignoring their target every 10 -15 seconds.

Correct me if I'm wrong but pets get group heals, right? Also if your pet dying an issue try out Calming Presence -even if it may be garbage- to heal it and spam the pet heal. You can't have all your favourite tactics if you're in a serious premade fight,right? You can also hamper the pet killing effort by send it to the healer in the backline to waste the time of mdps focusing on it. I doubt mdps always snare your pet before bursting it.

As for the summoning time, a 2sec cast on the move is nothing. It's not like a SH summon where you have to be stationary to summon it. You can do it while moving to a target etc.

2.Dropping a target is all about the burst not sustained damage. Non-burst damage is the opponent's healing teammates desire and WL is all about burst. You knock the guard then burst. Who cares if it's every 15seconds -worst case scenario-? Premade fights are all about timing and coordinating the burst. If it's every 15 seconds then so be it, after their party member drops the other team starts focusing on other priorities rather than 1 or even 2 pets.

3.The AP is an issue for slayers as well. However, you have pots, AP Aura, AP buff from an IB, etc . If AP is that much of an issue then your group isn't set up well. Slayer's Gardruns warcry for the AP consumption reduction has a CD of 40 seconds -60s but since it lasts 20 you can consider it 40 in cd.

4.And yes you can run off when your target is almost dead and get out of being focused to leave your pet to finish it -in a small scale situation not a premade one-. Anyone who's been on the receiving end of WLs or SH pets that respect no physical boundries have noticed that. I think you're just trying extra hard to make it sound like the WL is in a bad spot compared to a 2h slayer.

If the picture you're painting is true then how come almost every order premades runs a WL instead of a 2h slayer if they were comparable and equal?. Why not run 2slayers: Skaven and giant. I doubt they do that coz of the outgoing healdebuff when focusing a mdps target after punting its guard away in a premade..

The Giant slayer tree needs reworking and I wish they didn't start nerfing skaven -much deserved but I think SL was overly nerfed in WBs given its tiny range and mainly affecting the front line of tanks that you need 7 on top of you to get the full effect compared to chop fasta but that's another issue- before they made changes for Giant .

The 2h Choppa is in a good spot coz of the CD increase on the target, outgoing+incoming heal debuff (outgoing hits almost as hard as a finisher) and the group autoattack speed buff not to mention two 2h choppas one can run Chop fasta+2h hitta tree and the other can run the incoming heal debuff +hitta tree to good effect if they can't secure a mara.

[TenTonHammer]

No one runs x2 choppas let alone x2 2H choppas; there will ALWAYS be atleast 1 mara and even then x2 mara are much more common than 1 mara + chop. If they cant secure a mara is a moot point

And outside of bomb groups (and even then) chop fasta is a joke ability for its horrendous CD

[Kali14]

I have another idea how to make ppl play giant spec etc. It's maybe bit crazy or maybe not. How do you think if we will make Spellbreaker 100 feet range? This will be like throw attack of Thor hammer. Tactics needed : Power Through, Tikin Cheances and Honour Restored, so we can spam It and have self heal. This will be great for PUG SC because WH/ WL anyway better for premade than slayer with great weapon.