Changehammer

[footpatrol2]

The nail in the coffin for me is the morale gain change. In all the racial groups I've ran the racial morale's are what provides the competitive edge. You need the correct morale gain rate and to have the correct morale gain rate on tactic's in order to compete. Its still a uphill battle for racial groups with the correct morale gain rate and morale gain tactic's, but it can be done. Its for players that want a unique playstyle and a bigger challenge then classic cookie cutter mixed builds.

You gain access to defensive morale cycle's and morale bombs. With incorrect morale gain rates/morale tactic's there is no way racial groups can compete against the big boyz. I lost my competitive edge. The morale gain change is a nail in the coffin to the style of play I like to conduct in. I'm heavily dependant on the racial morale's in order to compete.

I tried to bring this up in the morale changes topic but I'm not allowed to discuss racial groups there.

[Azarael]

This is rubbish for multiple reasons:

1) The relative rate of morale gain is the same as live. The morale pump tactics got scaled down with the morale scaler, but if you have a given morale pump setup, that morale setup is still x% faster at gaining morale than any other setup in any situation on RoR. So, in large engagements, it's the same as live. In smaller engagements, you now have to demonstrate that the expanded window between your morales and theirs, or between morale levels (if your morale pumps / gains are slower than theirs) make any kind of difference, and good luck doing that, as you'd need to demonstrate an effective and reliable timing attack based on morales which is specifically effective against your group.

2) and this is the kicker: you never, ever had a competitive edge regardless of gain rates. You're trying to shoehorn racial groups into the game. They were never the best option, and the closest you could get in RvR to a strong racially linked group was the double Knight, double BW, double WP that was seen a lot in T3. You are weaker than any competitively designed group and most halfarsed multiracial groups as well, because they are taking full advantage of everything in the game, all 12 classes on each faction and the synergies therein, and you are restricting yourselves to 4 classes. Straight off, that means you are doubling up on healers and tanks and you're missing a cleanse type altogether. If you're playing Greenskins, you're forgoing group cleanse and fast cleanse, you have no cleanse against BW, SM and Engineer and you are also failing to exploit the ludicrous Chosen auras. Those factors alone are more than enough to sink your "competitive edge" without any of this exaggeration about morales, and how you can talk about the game being designed around racial groups when the healers are designed to be used in multiracial combinations because of missing cleanse types, I do not know.

[GodlessCrom]

I have literally never seen a racial group in game that was meant to be competitive. It's always just people having events for fun, like the Thunderers, or the occasional spontaneous WAAAGH of orcs. So I think this may be an issue that impacts you, and only you, foot.

[footpatrol2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDCYcRE ... e=youtu.be

6 man vs a warband using spec specific morale 4's. This is a competitive greenskinz group I ran. This isn't even the ideal group set up and the BO wasn't on comms which would have made the morale bomb even bigger.
There is more then one way to play this game.

The morale gain rate is not the same as it was on retail that is the point i'm trying to make. The morale scaler didn't exist. If the morale gain rate was the same as retail I'd have a chance at competing with the big boyz. It allows a more dynamic meta to exist.

[Jaycub]

I feel like if you didn't ask for too much and overstate/estimate, you could possibly get increased morale rates for full 6 racial groups, even just as a meme to throw those group a bone.

[GodlessCrom]

I would play a full Dwarfen group for the luls. Double Slayer is already good. Double Ironbreaker is...well, I mean if you switch Oathfriend like crazy, it's like a ghetto KOTBS Good news is you can all hide behind rocks without the Swordmaster's tall ass elf name giving it away. Sounds viable already!

[footpatrol2]

I ran dwarf groups for years. its a blast. Some of the funnest times I've had playing this game.
Here's how I ran those dwarf groups

Spoiler:

I also ran them when mountain spirit was 30 sec's so we'd have a permanent resist boost/armor boost for the group. We'd use armored plating from the engineer as a clutch save for the group if we were taking too much damage. Ran a 12 man that had double shatter limbs and 2 engineers one napalm one rift. We'd all sit in the napalm on a flag point and capture the flag, no kiting. Just be a ROCK. The playstyle was extermely useful for SC's that are based on holding one flag or holding one point or taking battle objectives or defending a keep entrance. Cycle defensive morale's which was to include 2 20 sec group absorbs each at 7200 from each ironbreaker with gromril plating.

If we didn't get pressured hard enough we'd save the morale's for a nasty morale bomb that can be conducted on a rift. This was also when the racial morale gain tactic was available. 5% additional morale gain per same race member in a group for a total of 30% additional morale gain. We'd also bring banners for additional morale gain plus banner affects.

Dwarf morale bomb we had access too in 12 man.
2 Rune of Skewering 2400 40ft in front total 4800
2 Cannon Smash 2400 single target Or morale 4 fling explosives/artillery Barrage
1 Vengeance IB for Axe slam 2400 65ft in front
2 Doom seeker 1800 30ft AE stun total 3600.

With dwarves we had 2 defensive morale cycle's.
2 runepriests provide 2 mountain spirits. Morale cooldown rate is 1 minute. Mountain spirit duration used to be 30 sec's. Which meant you could cycle them for 100% upkeep if desired.
2 ironbreakers 1 engineer. With these classes we got 2 7200 group absorbs for 20 sec each and 1 armored plating. We'd have to open up with armored plating because its a morale 2 then we add in m3 gromril plating and cycle them over the duration. Once the ball is rolling we'd have a 3 clutch saves.

Having 2 defensive morale cycle's is BOSS.
We'd call out on comms over multiple groups that runepriest 1 from group 1 and runepriest 3 from group 2 is starting their defensive morale cycle of mountain spirit. Both runepriests would say spirit 1 out. At the 25 sec mark the runepriests that poped their mountain spirit would say spirit down. This was to tell the other runepriests to prepare to pop their mountain spirit. If you mix up the races you can't coordinate and control morale's like this over multiple groups or I should say it would be WAY more difficult. Morale bombs were part of the overall strategy in the groups I ran. Pro's/Con's.

We rift and conduct a morale bomb of a total 4800 + 2400 + 3600 = 10800 AE damage sprinkled in with m4 engineer AE morale damage. This isn't even the constant AP damage we'd be pumping out also. The group also had a serious AP feed. We'd have to make a tough call on using our amazing defensive morales or save up for a morale bomb. Each time we use a defensive morale we are decreasing the morale bomb. If our goal was to just hold one location we'd freely use our defensive morale cycle's to hold that location.

Is the group I just described the best of everything? No. Was it a stupid amount of fun to be rock hard and basically unshiftable. Yes. This is some of the unique stuff that is available to racial groups and they are dependant on the racial morale's to be competitive. The opposition had to rush us and kill us before we got to our morale 2. Once we got to our morale 2 we'd start up the defensive morale cycle's and be a ROCK.

@Azarael

Spoiler:

how you can talk about the game being designed around racial groups when the healers are designed to be used in multiracial combinations because of missing cleanse types, I do not know.

What shatters what and what cleanses what gives hints on how the balance was suppose to be set up or at least the original balance. Ever since Mark jacobs was fired in june 2009 and mythic joined bioware, the design direction started moving away from racial groups. Azarael think if you lost your position/removed from the RoR team and a player like me was replaced in your position. It would be a dramatically different game right? This is what happened to this game at one point with the removal of Mark Jacobs.

Mark Jacobs favors the rock, paper, scissors type set up in game design and this was done through what cleanses what and what shatters through the races. A race is strong against one faction and weak against another. Just like rock paper scissors.

The reason on why you wanted to be in the same race group was due to the racial morale gain tactic which would lead you to gaining morale 30% faster then normal if all your group members were of the same race. Which meant you got to the cannon on the back of a chariot 30% faster then normal. Meaning you got to your morale bomb or defensive morale cycle 30% faster. In addition you could have used banners for even MORE increased morale gain. The Cannon on the back of the chariot is the I win button thats suppose to break game balance. The spec specific morale 4's are suppose to be in common use.

Are you willing to risk a loss of 5% morale gain by bringing in a different race healer to cover your cleanses. This mean's 5/6 members of your group will have a 5% morale gain loss. Well in a environment that is not heavily built on morale bombing sure. The answer from the community is "yes". Why? Because specific morale 4/3 bombing never got hyper competitive. It never got to the point where your competing for gaining your morale a few seconds over your opposition which would have meant you won the fight over them. But the mark jacob/crew didn't think that would have been the response. They thought we'd use the spec specific morale 4's and make use of banners all the time in same race groups. Morale 4's would be used all the time in AoR. They thought banners would have been used all the time for additional morale gain + banner effects. How often were banners used in competitive play? How often did you use banners in competitive play?

Morale 4's have a 1 minute cooldown. It was thought that morale 4's would be achieved in 90 sec's or even shorter then that with all the morale gain items/banners/racial morale gain tactic. Morale gain items are placed at high value in this game. Not by the players but by the game itself. I can pull up a video of a original dev stating that fights weren't suppose to last longer then 30 sec's to 90 sec's. Which 90 sec's is conveniently at the correct morale gain rate to get to your morale 4 without any boosters. How long do fights last in hyper competitive groups? Sometimes in caledor woods noyone is even killed. Morale bombs are a fundamental part of the game. The TTk is relatively high for competitive groups because they are suppose to be broken by morale bombs or your suppose to push over the damage needed with morale damage.

Anyway I wish you the best of luck man.

[katroulitsa]

I would be ashamed to post that video on forums or youtube in general, but again its just me
This thread cant get any better tho <3

[Razid1987]

Why are we talking about racial combs/wbs again, Foot? Will you never let this nonsense go?

[GodlessCrom]

I ran dwarf groups for years. its a blast. Some of the funnest times I've had playing this game.
Here's how I ran those dwarf groups

Spoiler:

I also ran them when mountain spirit was 30 sec's so we'd have a permanent resist boost/armor boost for the group. We'd use armored plating from the engineer as a clutch save for the group if we were taking too much damage. Ran a 12 man that had double shatter limbs and 2 engineers one napalm one rift. We'd all sit in the napalm on a flag point and capture the flag, no kiting. Just be a ROCK. The playstyle was extermely useful for SC's that are based on holding one flag or holding one point or taking battle objectives or defending a keep entrance. Cycle defensive morale's which was to include 2 20 sec group absorbs each at 7200 from each ironbreaker with gromril plating.

If we didn't get pressured hard enough we'd save the morale's for a nasty morale bomb that can be conducted on a rift. This was also when the racial morale gain tactic was available. 5% additional morale gain per same race member in a group for a total of 30% additional morale gain. We'd also bring banners for additional morale gain plus banner affects.

Dwarf morale bomb we had access too in 12 man.
2 Rune of Skewering 2400 40ft in front total 4800
2 Cannon Smash 2400 single target Or morale 4 fling explosives/artillery Barrage
1 Vengeance IB for Axe slam 2400 65ft in front
2 Doom seeker 1800 30ft AE stun total 3600.

With dwarves we had 2 defensive morale cycle's.
2 runepriests provide 2 mountain spirits. Morale cooldown rate is 1 minute. Mountain spirit duration used to be 30 sec's. Which meant you could cycle them for 100% upkeep if desired.
2 ironbreakers 1 engineer. With these classes we got 2 7200 group absorbs for 20 sec each and 1 armored plating. We'd have to open up with armored plating because its a morale 2 then we add in m3 gromril plating and cycle them over the duration. Once the ball is rolling we'd have a 3 clutch saves.

Having 2 defensive morale cycle's is BOSS.
We'd call out on comms over multiple groups that runepriest 1 from group 1 and runepriest 3 from group 2 is starting their defensive morale cycle of mountain spirit. Both runepriests would say spirit 1 out. At the 25 sec mark the runepriests that poped their mountain spirit would say spirit down. This was to tell the other runepriests to prepare to pop their mountain spirit. If you mix up the races you can't coordinate and control morale's like this over multiple groups or I should say it would be WAY more difficult. Morale bombs were part of the overall strategy in the groups I ran. Pro's/Con's.

We rift and conduct a morale bomb of a total 4800 + 2400 + 3600 = 10800 AE damage sprinkled in with m4 engineer AE morale damage. This isn't even the constant AP damage we'd be pumping out also. The group also had a serious AP feed. We'd have to make a tough call on using our amazing defensive morales or save up for a morale bomb. Each time we use a defensive morale we are decreasing the morale bomb. If our goal was to just hold one location we'd freely use our defensive morale cycle's to hold that location.

Is the group I just described the best of everything? No. Was it a stupid amount of fun to be rock hard and basically unshiftable. Yes. This is some of the unique stuff that is available to racial groups and they are dependant on the racial morale's to be competitive. The opposition had to rush us and kill us before we got to our morale 2. Once we got to our morale 2 we'd start up the defensive morale cycle's and be a ROCK.

@Azarael

Spoiler:

how you can talk about the game being designed around racial groups when the healers are designed to be used in multiracial combinations because of missing cleanse types, I do not know.

What shatters what and what cleanses what gives hints on how the balance was suppose to be set up or at least the original balance. Ever since Mark jacobs was fired in june 2009 and mythic joined bioware, the design direction started moving away from racial groups. Azarael think if you lost your position/removed from the RoR team and a player like me was replaced in your position. It would be a dramatically different game right? This is what happened to this game at one point with the removal of Mark Jacobs.

Mark Jacobs favors the rock, paper, scissors type set up in game design and this was done through what cleanses what and what shatters through the races. A race is strong against one faction and weak against another. Just like rock paper scissors.

The reason on why you wanted to be in the same race group was due to the racial morale gain tactic which would lead you to gaining morale 30% faster then normal if all your group members were of the same race. Which meant you got to the cannon on the back of a chariot 30% faster then normal. Meaning you got to your morale bomb or defensive morale cycle 30% faster. In addition you could have used banners for even MORE increased morale gain. The Cannon on the back of the chariot is the I win button thats suppose to break game balance. The spec specific morale 4's are suppose to be in common use.

Are you willing to risk a loss of 5% morale gain by bringing in a different race healer to cover your cleanses. This mean's 5/6 members of your group will have a 5% morale gain loss. Well in a environment that is not heavily built on morale bombing sure. The answer from the community is "yes". Why? Because specific morale 4/3 bombing never got hyper competitive. It never got to the point where your competing for gaining your morale a few seconds over your opposition which would have meant you won the fight over them. But the mark jacob/crew didn't think that would have been the response. They thought we'd use the spec specific morale 4's and make use of banners all the time in same race groups. Morale 4's would be used all the time in AoR. They thought banners would have been used all the time for additional morale gain + banner effects. How often were banners used in competitive play? How often did you use banners in competitive play?

Morale 4's have a 1 minute cooldown. It was thought that morale 4's would be achieved in 90 sec's or even shorter then that with all the morale gain items/banners/racial morale gain tactic. Morale gain items are placed at high value in this game. Not by the players but by the game itself. I can pull up a video of a original dev stating that fights weren't suppose to last longer then 30 sec's to 90 sec's. Which 90 sec's is conveniently at the correct morale gain rate to get to your morale 4 without any boosters. How long do fights last in hyper competitive groups? Sometimes in caledor woods noyone is even killed. Morale bombs are a fundamental part of the game. The TTk is relatively high for competitive groups because they are suppose to be broken by morale bombs or your suppose to push over the damage needed with morale damage.

Anyway I wish you the best of luck man.

Sorry for the long post you wrote man, but I was just joking. No one I know has any interest in running a racial warband, including myself.