[Guard Mechanic] - Discussion/Changes?

[Wuhh]

Please leave Guard alone.

for me that's the end of that.

The other things, it's one button. it needs you to target a friendly player. then push that one button, up to 2 times. This is NOT skill, this is pushing a button. The skill, as mentioned in thread, is when and where to use it, and that includes swapping it. Not rocket science...

Next. People will want detaunt to fire automatically...

[th3gatekeeper]

@th3gatekeeper that's not a problem x se the game was created around guilds, that's a fact .

look at banner/keeps/guild mounts etc.

ppl are playing in a way which the game is not designed for, so ye is less actractive in that sense, but also ppl do not have the sense of the things, you are playing a mmorpg jesus.
It's not a moba.

I wasnt going to respond to this, but I have much respect for you Tesq.

Read my previous post on the last page, under your post I am quoting.

We agree man, I dont know why people dont understand this. I agree the game was made around guilds. But you said it yourself

"ppl are playing in a way which the game is not designed for"

This is exactly my point. I would say the age of a game being built around "guild PVP" is probably gone. I could be wrong, and am likely in the minority of players in this game - since that is what appealed to them to play WAR when it was LIVE which is the majority of ROR players now.

My point is, the gamer marketplace generally doesnt want a game that forces you to play guild vs guild PVP. We all know how it SHOULD be played. So why isnt it? People either dont know or dont care, or both!

No amount of guides or tells will change this. It wont be until after a few months of playing, and playing alts, that people MIGHT figure it out. Meanwhile there is a high risk of that player leaving, and a very high certainty they will piss players off by not using what their entire class was BUILT around - Guarding.

All I am saying is, there HAS to be a way to make guard more intuitive and fun AND beneficial to the tank himself which WILL promote the type of play war was built around.

At this point. We are 5 pages deep. People cant seem to understand the nature of my comments and keep posting dumb stuff, and I am likely in the minority here anyways since most ROR players are LIVE players. I guess I have a unique perspective since I only played live for 2 months after launch - so I basically dont have that "LIVE" mentality like many people I come across do... Where people just want to re-live those days.. But they are gone.

I am looking at this project as a new thing and saying "what will increase the QOL of this game and not only attract new players to it but KEEP current players playing" and seeing that I am a tank, and basically ONLY play tanks, I can tell you guard is something that sometimes frustrates me. That plus the fact that PUGs shouldnt even be able to make damn tanks and take up a tank spot if they wont use guard... So im just trying to increase the QOL here. But I concede. I seem to be in the minority and at this point, noone is going to read 5 pages of comments to learn the true nature of my concerns/perspective and the point of this thread. So lets just let it die

[NSKaneda]

All I am saying is, there HAS to be a way to make guard more intuitive and fun AND beneficial to the tank himself which WILL promote the type of play war was built around.

There is. It's called "winning"

[warkaiser]

I agree with many of the points on both sides of this discussion. Yes, guard is pretty great as is when used properly, but at the same time there are a large portion of players who don't use it properly.

Yes, that is a L2P issue, but at the same time that doesn't mean other options can't be considered, especially a 3rd option which (I don't think) has been brought to the table yet.

Basically we have 2 major things to consider:

1) Guard is not being used properly, especially outside of premades, by majority of players. Why is that?

2) Guard is an important mechanic which several other aspects of the game revolve around.

So rather than doing something as drastic as say, the proposal to change the way guard works between different tank classes, what if we were to consider doing this:

Leave the MECHANICS of Guard alone, adjust the STATS of guard, and alter OTHER MECHANICS to compensate for the changes to guard stats.

What I mean by that is, let's say we do something like reduce the current effectiveness of Guard across all classes. Then make alterations to the mechanics of the different tank classes which combined with the "nerfed" guard are just as effective (maybe with some slight variations) as the current guard.

As a result you have a) a combined result that is just as effective as current guard and b) mechanics in place that sort of act as a half-guard without having to rely on guard.

This would allow some room for interesting choices which separate the tank playstyles a bit more from eachother.

I don't have a perfect plan for this, it's just kind of an idea I'm throwing together, but I guess we could use KoTBs and IB as an example:

KOTBS:
- The skill Guard itself is 40% less effective
- Auras now have the same effect as Guard (at a smaller percentage) to all group members effected by them.

Result: A semi-guard which is automatically placed on others just by being in range of the auras (allowing others to get at least SOME guard benefit even when stuck with a bad tank) combined with the ability to Guard a single target (stacks with the aura version) for a much more powerful effect then what the entire group is getting

IB:
- The skill Guard is 25% less effective
- That 25% that is taken off is instead added to their Oath Friend skill
Result: Oath Friend has a built in semi-Guard effect now so that he Oath Fiend is AT LEAST getting that if the tank isn't guarding properly. This allows the IB to have the flexibility of either Oath+Guarding a single person for full Guard effectiveness but also allows them the option of splitting Oath Friend and Guard between 2 players to soak up some of the damage being taken from both (basically would be a bit more effective in AoE situation by allowing damage reduction for 2 groupmates instead of just 1, but still allows them to fully focus 1 when needed)



Again, just some ideas. Maybe they're crazy and suck, but something along those lines might be worth considering not so much as a "balance" issue but as more of a somewhere down the road "how can we create more diversity between the classes / make them more interesting" sort of deal.

[th3gatekeeper]

I agree with many of the points on both sides of this discussion. Yes, guard is pretty great as is when used properly, but at the same time there are a large portion of players who don't use it properly.

Yes, that is a L2P issue, but at the same time that doesn't mean other options can't be considered, especially a 3rd option which (I don't think) has been brought to the table yet.

Basically we have 2 major things to consider:

1) Guard is not being used properly, especially outside of premades, by majority of players. Why is that?

2) Guard is an important mechanic which several other aspects of the game revolve around.

Again, just some ideas. Maybe they're crazy and suck, but something along those lines might be worth considering not so much as a "balance" issue but as more of a somewhere down the road "how can we create more diversity between the classes / make them more interesting" sort of deal.

Exactly. I have never said it wasnt a L2P issue, but to answer these.

#1 "Guard is not being used properly, especially outside of premades, by majority of players. Why is that?":
because its self-less and NOT a fun ability to use. People act like its so easy to guard. This is partially true. You also have to stay within 30 feet of that guarded target. I have personally seen some of the best tanks in this game, brag about their "guard swapping ability" but in watching the fights closely, they will swap to a target who is OUTSIDE the 30 foot range and ends up dying. If guard had 60 foot range, or 100 foot range then sure, it would be the biggest "no brainer" in the world. But it requires active "management" through staying close to your guarded target while providing NO benefits back to the tank himself.

If you want to solve this issue, you can look at ways to make it a more "fun" ability and/or providing a selfish benefit to the tank himself if he is using guard correctly... A good example (again) is taunt, or heck, even hold the line is another one. The tank himself gets some great benefits for using HTL, and also gives those to his group too. Why cant guard do this type of thing?

Thanks for posting, this is the nature of my post. Its not that "guard is too hard to use" or anything. Its looking at the SAME data we all are and trying to see if there is a possible way to make Guard a more fun ability, that is more intuitive and if there is a way we can make ALL tanks WANT to use guard...


I mean ONE possible idea would be to make guard an AoE buff instead that lasts for X seconds that provides a significant DR boost during that time to anyone within X feet, as well as the tank himself. So rather than "splitting damage" it becomes a big survival boost for everyone. If you targeted a 50% uptime, it would still require more than 1 tank for "premade play" for each party, along with coordination... But now you will have ALL tanks using it and will protect their party as well as themselves...

There are MANY things you can do with guard like the above, where it still accomplishes the goals that everyone here has stated, while ALSO making it much more fun, intuitive, and mutually beneficial to both the tank and his party.

Heck, any "adjustment" to guard so that it is more fun/mutually beneficial, could ALSO be balanced with hold the line, in that you could change guard and then BUFF hold the line since it does function a little the same way... Maybe providing even more dodge/disrupt...

[warislove]

i didnt play tank on live started playing kotbs here in RoR and have learned how guard works by reading the ability info...i dont understand what kind of ppl you think are playing this game without realising what they have to do to play their class properly....

and using guard isnt l2p issue its just common sense....

i play pug 100% of the time and i really wouldnt like to see that RoR goes in the direction of catering players that dont understand how to play their toons...incentive should be to play in grp/wb

@gatekeeper your suggestion should be "can u devs put permanent text above player that plays a tank: USE GUARD, DONT FORGET PLS'"

[Ninepaces]

Dont touch guard please.

Would love to see mitigation on sc board, also would love to see damage value changed to dmg that contributes to kills within the next 20s.

[th3gatekeeper]

i didnt play tank on live started playing kotbs here in RoR and have learned how guard works by reading the ability info...i dont understand what kind of ppl you think are playing this game without realising what they have to do to play their class properly....

and using guard isnt l2p issue its just common sense....

i play pug 100% of the time and i really wouldnt like to see that RoR goes in the direction of catering players that dont understand how to play their toons...incentive should be to play in grp/wb

@gatekeeper your suggestion should be "can u devs put permanent text above player that plays a tank: USE GUARD, DONT FORGET PLS'"

All I will say to make this analogy clear is this... Lets say there was a 4th mutation for Maras called "Uber Mutation" and its tooltip did this:
"Increases the effectiveness of ALL your debuffs by 200%,. but your attacks deal no damage"

so now, in group "META" play... everyone is gonna say "WTF dude why are you not in Uber Stance" whenever a Mara isnt doing his debuff stance and instead actually wanting to feel like he is playing the game...

See the point? This "UBER" stance would be what everyone ELSE wants that player to play, but the player himself might say "no man its boring as fk to play it"

Then people come along and say "leave uber stance as it is, its just a L2P issue, it doesnt take any actual SKILL, you click the stance and then hit the target with debuffs, its easy, its common sense, people just need to play the way the class was made to be played, etc."

All of this is true. And its all true in relation to guard as well. Its NOT hard, its NOT rocket science. So why do no tanks do it minus a very very FEW? Because its not FUN to play that way LOL. Just like in this case. You would NEVER see an "Uber Mutation" Mara in most games unless a full PM group... Because it would be amazing for PMs but not fun to play at all...

This isnt about skill, or L2P, or people just being bad and refusing to play how the class was designed. All those are true.

I am merely questioning, just because it was designed this way, is that ideal? It seems to me its NOT when you have players natural instinct and desire to have FUN leads them to not use guard... To me, that screams design flaw... Thats just my opinion

[peterthepan3]

Guard works.
It functions well.
Most people who play competitively have no quarms with it (maybe different ways to counter it)

If you neuter guard to appease people who are not using it because (as you claim) there is no inherent 'fun' to the ability - heeding not the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' philosophy, because guard is functioning as it should - then that will just piss a lot of people off tbh.

If you want new means of motivating people to use guard, then I get where you're coming from. Perhaps making a few guides on careful guard usage, guard swapping, what addons to use etc. would help these people out. But there is no logic in changing it because - as you have reiterated several times - of people who 'see no fun in using it'.

I see no 'fun' in using my pet as a Magus, but it's part of my mechanic...should I therefore not use it - despite it being effective? (gives me damage and range buff, provides debuffs and damage - aka does its job as a stationary pet)

If I come across brash I apologise. You seem like a genuine dude with his intentions in the right place.

[th3gatekeeper]

Guard works.
It functions well.
Most people who play competitively have no quarms with it (maybe different ways to counter it)

If you neuter guard to appease people who are not using it because (as you claim) there is no inherent 'fun' to the ability - heeding not the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' philosophy, because guard is functioning as it should - then that will just piss a lot of people off tbh.

If you want new means of motivating people to use guard, then I get where you're coming from. Perhaps making a few guides on careful guard usage, guard swapping, what addons to use etc. would help these people out. But there is no logic in changing it because - as you have reiterated several times - of people who 'see no fun in using it'.

I see no 'fun' in using my pet as a Magus, but it's part of my mechanic...should I therefore not use it - despite it being effective? (gives me damage and range buff, provides debuffs and damage - aka does its job as a stationary pet)

If I come across brash I apologise. You seem like a genuine dude with his intentions in the right place.

Here is the difference in what I see... and I could be wrong man. I am not saying I have the "solution" which is why I havnt made any proposals, just wanted to get people talking about this because I know there is a ton of creative power in the player base. But here is where I think our opinions differ.

You use your pet/magus example. I know any analogy breaksdown, and I get where your coming from its not "as fun" sure. But the BIG difference - you use your pet and it gives YOU some benefits "damage/range buff". When a person uses guard it gives that player NO benefits.

Imagine if your pet DIDNT get you any benefits but merely gave your group benefits instead. That would be more akin to the analogy, you might make a post saying "pets buffs should apply to me too" and I think it would be justified.

Also you mention "if it aint broke dont fix it" I am torn on this. Sure the mechanic isnt broken itself and its being used at top level gameplay, but the MAJORITY of gameplay I have been involved in, its NOT being used. So to me that does say "its broke".

Now one solution is to post guides and /tell the players and explain. Ive done this man, I really have. Maybe its just being an NA player and lower population that is part of the root here, but I have only really played tanks. I leveled a BW and Mara up just to learn the other rolls a little better. Not once on my BW did I get guard (understandable) but only about 3-4 times I got guard on my Mara... and I farmed the SC set.. Not saying its hard, but just saying that so you know I have done a GOOD amount of PVP. Players dont use guard unless in a premade, or the small handful of REAL tank ROR/WAR players who realize how good it is.

I would wager, that 60%+ of the 'tanks' in this game are not using guard and if they are its at 25% of less of its "capacity". If they are using it, (this 60%) its like what I see all the time, they toss it on some MDPS and then expect the MDPS to follow them assisting them. They never swap guard, etc. Anyways, I get worked up when I talk about this, as you probably already see....


Also, I want to be clear. I am not advocating for neutering guard, merely modifying it so it has more benefits in more situations to more people.

One "idea" that has been appealing to me was just making guard work like Vigilance. This is just an example and not a fully flushed out idea... But an AoE Vigilance.

"reducing all damage you and your allies within 30 feet take by 50% for the next 10 seconds" something like that, with a 20 sec CD.

So you get two tanks, they can cycle that "guard" buff for 100% uptime. You CC/punt that guard away and BAM you just ruined the cycle.

So now it involves maybe even more coordination at "top end" PVP. But now its also much more "PUG" friendly because EVERY tank will be spamming this when under fire, and they cant HELP but provide that benefit to some allies. Now the MDPS will want to follow a tank around so they get this buff when under fire, rather than the tank being forced to follow them.

This is just one iteration of the options and what could be done. It doesnt neuter guard, if anything it makes it more versatile while still able to be countered by the same mechanics in how its countered today. It also isnt OP and mindless as it still takes a little positioning and thought about WHEN to use this new "guard"..

Again, just a thought... But you see my point I hope.