[Guard Mechanic] - Discussion/Changes?

[warislove]

i am not a very skilled player and therefore i dont allow myself to call others baddies...but for someone to cry about guard being OP or unable to use some logic how to counter it..well im sorry you sux kinda hard

[gke96]

Guard range is 10ft too wide. Missed some of the radius checks in the special ability handlers. Expect it to contract in next patch.

Do you mean its bugged working in 40 ft atm and will be fixed to 30 ft (tho didnt notice somehow)

or is it correctly working with 30 ft right now and will be reduced to 20 ft?

[Azarael]

If you're reading my post and coming up with any interpretation other than the first one, I'm quite worried.

[Gerv]

causes issues in PVP when players DONT use it

There are inexperienced healers, inexperienced mdps and inexperienced tanks that don't use their abilities correctly, this causes issues in PvP.

I suggest we just let these players get more experienced and leave guard as is - "guard is fine"

Making guard act in a different way to encourage people to use it will make no difference to the current crop of players who don't already use it because they will very likely not read the forums, not notice the changes and continue to go along how they have always played.

It sounds like you, The Gate Keeper, have finally realized why the majority of experienced players hate pugging and have begun to experience the pain that can be your second group in 12v12 scenarios.

Welcome to the club, enjoy your stay. Find a premade and stop worrying about these things.

[th3gatekeeper]

Welcome to the club, enjoy your stay. Find a premade and stop worrying about these things.

There is no need to patronize here... Also, this wasnt my idea (to change guard). Maybe its just an NA problem then and this never happens during EU times, though I doubt it.

Ive already posted all I have to say on this throughout this thread and seems I may be in the minority on this issue, but it seems to me that the way the game is currently played - essentially requiring everyone to play in groups, in "METAs" is one of the biggest barriers to this game and why it has population issues (both now and when WAR was live).

Dont get me wrong, this project is a success, but if you ever want to see the population increase massively, then it does need to steer more towards the "casual" player who may not be part of a large guild, who may not have tons of friends online, who may end up Pugging, or Duo or TRIO Quing for SCs, or RVR and are at a big disadvantage in not only how they play but what classes they can play...

From my personal experience playing my Knight/Chosen/SM as my "mains" this isnt a non-tank player coming to QQ, nor is it me saying "guard is too hard". Its me saying that some of the tendencies of this game are very un-inviting to someone unless they come prepared to play with only a guild - which for some of us NA players, means a very small handful of people to choose from.

So ill spot posting here, but something I would just have you consider is, there will always be a "choice" between harcore/lower population games and "softcore"/higher population games.

Maybe ROR is just intended to be the former and thats that... I dont see how it will grow to have high population without making it more casual friendly - enabling players not to feel forced to play with a guild in order to play classes - because PUGs ARE so bad...

One of the primary reasons (imo) that PUGGING is so painful in ROR, more so than other games, are that alot of these mechanics (like guard) require the tank to be completely selfless in their approach to playing the game. Which is why people come to the game, pick a DPS, play for a while and quit when they get killed in 3 seconds because the guys that CHOSE to play tanks, dont guard because its not fun...

I think there is a middle ground somewhere, and thats what this thread was about. Trying to see if there was a way to make guard more fun to use, maybe more appealing to PUG tanks, which increases the QoL of all the players in this game... Maybe im just crazy, I just know from my time here and being an NA player how many times we COULDNT get a full group of competent players to play or those days you just wanna get on and casually play a few SCs, without feeling mandatory to get a group together... It just isnt the most "inviting"... Again, seems I am in the minority here, my intentions are to make ROR great and a fun game for all.

[NSKaneda]

Do you even know how much RPs you get with guarding in scs? And switching guard in pve and in keep sieges is a guarantee for high contribution.

Of course playing a tank is a selfless thing! All the skills are pointing to either reducing dps on a team mate or buffing him. Sure, you can choose to play your tank as dps and line-braking play style is (or: was) valid and essential for certain 24v24 builds to work. But you only need 1-2 linebreakers and 4-6 s'n'bs...

DPS tank owns. It's fun. Lots of fun, I admit But so is panzer mode. Unkillable, better-to-be-left-alone, tough as nails Koenig's Tiger of Warhammer world. But even a Tiger will fall to weaklings if left alone so support is needed (other history related tactic is every other tank platoon with infantry support). Tank needs other m/r/dps to... Dps. If you wanted to dps wouldn't a DPS class be better at it?


So, you guard. Your healer. Your MDPS. Your mate loosing a fight next to you. Not that it's any harm to you, not really. All it requires is for you to pick a dropping HP bar on party window, click guard and let healers take care of the rest. Throw a taunt with that guard to reduce damage on your team mate even more. Let enemy addon take care of range and you're good - you can switch target to dps some more. Not that it really matters because your burst sucks but your helping by playing the way your class was designed to play. And you're getting phat purple numbers for it. Win-win.

Want excitement? Play a healer

[Gerv]

hmm, once again I have managed to come off really sarcastic when I don't mean to.

I play/main tanks too. I disagree with you that making guard easier to use or a more interesting skill than it currently is will result in an increase of the players using it. I strongly believe that a lot of these issues are a result of a lack of understanding of how to play the class and a lack of education on how to build your tank for certain roles.

You can still play an offensive tank (2hd) and still guard people. There is just a different perspective to look at the damage game when you do so. You likely know this, and it is at this point where I bring in the point of a lack of knowledge and educating players. Now we can write guides and all but not everyone will read them. A tank's role by definition is to be hard to kill and soak up damage. If people do not want to adopt this mindset when playing the classes from the start I don't think changing a ability will help in that way.

I strongly think that we are better off, if you are pugging, sending a quiet tell to the player and asking them why they are not using guard and then explain to them how to build to their play style and use guard at the same time.

[Telen]

If mitigation was on the sc boards like they are in other games you'd see alot more players guarding and taunt/challenging better.

[Tesq]

@th3gatekeeper that's not a problem x se the game was created around guilds, that's a fact .

look at banner/keeps/guild mounts etc.

ppl are playing in a way which the game is not designed for, so ye is less actractive in that sense, but also ppl do not have the sense of the things, you are playing a mmorpg jesus.
It's not a moba.

[th3gatekeeper]

If mitigation was on the sc boards like they are in other games you'd see alot more players guarding and taunt/challenging better.

Already been proposed numerous times, they cant do this. I do agree, if this were as "stat" just like Damage is a stat and healing is a "stat" that you can see at the end of a game, more tanks would tank.

hmm, once again I have managed to come off really sarcastic when I don't mean to.

I play/main tanks too. I disagree with you that making guard easier to use or a more interesting skill than it currently is will result in an increase of the players using it. I strongly believe that a lot of these issues are a result of a lack of understanding of how to play the class and a lack of education on how to build your tank for certain roles.

You can still play an offensive tank (2hd) and still guard people. There is just a different perspective to look at the damage game when you do so. You likely know this, and it is at this point where I bring in the point of a lack of knowledge and educating players. Now we can write guides and all but not everyone will read them. A tank's role by definition is to be hard to kill and soak up damage. If people do not want to adopt this mindset when playing the classes from the start I don't think changing a ability will help in that way.

I strongly think that we are better off, if you are pugging, sending a quiet tell to the player and asking them why they are not using guard and then explain to them how to build to their play style and use guard at the same time.

Look, I understand the meta of this game very well. My Chosen has 70% parry chance as a 2H. Even as a 2H tank your primary roles are guarding/debuffing and maybe some punting

But I disagree with you on sending a quiet tell, this is a pipe dream. Been there, done that 100x... Doesnt work.

This is maybe where we just have different views.

We both see the same data:

"it is at this point where I bring in the point of a lack of knowledge and educating players. Now we can write guides and all but not everyone will read them. "

I 100% agree. Lack of knowledge. Ive literally written pages on this forum to tanks who are trying to "leet deeps bro" spec their Knights or Chosen and i inspect guys in SCs rocking 200-300 toughness and 5k HP but have like 900 STR and are slotting focused Offense and I just facepalm...

So we both agree. There is a serious lack of knowledge about how to play the class.

I look at that data and say "well its because its not intuitive at all, maybe we should CHANGE it to be more intuative to players"

Other people (you) say "we just need to teach them to L2P"

Now, how successful do you think a game will be that is very un-intuitive to players?

This is where I am coming from- and its from experience! When I first joined I played a Knight. I went 2H and went DPS and did exactly what I facepalm about now... Why? Because in any other game, you CAN do that. Not in WAR, WAR is designed "too balanced" almost to a fault, in that classes are extremely inter-dependent which means you cant have MDPS without tanks, cant have RDPS without a frontline, cant have.... well yeah healers are always good.

Why do tanks grab a 2H and not guard? Why do healers go DPS and not heal?

These are the "patterns" of new players or even existing players who dont WANT to "try hard". These "playstyles" are what is more intuitive to players.

So this is why I come to the conclusion that guard - and the way tanks provide this "guard/damage" mitigation should be changed. So that it aligns more with what IS intuitive and what IS fun.

Shaman/AM just had a little taste of this with their changes, so where they can do damage and heal better - why was this changed? IDK, but it could have something to do with complaints about too many DPS AM/Shaman and they werent healing.

Why cant we look at tanks the same way? Why cant there be a middle ground, so that when a new player comes to war his instincts in how to play align with how he should play. That he can be a 2H face smashing tank that ALSO provides benefits to his allies in a FUN and intuitive way?

When I look at any new-ish game. A tank class appeals to me. I dont automatically thing "I need to press this passive button and then proceed to follow this guy around and stay within 30 feet of him". I want my abilities to have a synergy with what is intuative to do - push the front lines and hit the opponent while having abilities that provide utility to my team.

A great example of this is AoE taunt, or taunt itself. EVERY tank uses taunt. Why? Because its a damage boost for them and a disrupt. Win-win.

AoE taunt is similar.

Guard isnt. Guard is 100% selfless and requires you to actively think about your party and not yourself.


Look at a good example: Overwatch/Paladins have a tank class that has a shield - you block all damage. It allows YOU to push and block damage better, and then allows your team to not get hit. Win-win.

There is no win-win with guard. its a selfless thing a tank must do, that isnt fun (for most gamers) which is why its not intuitive and people dont use it (generally) unless they play other characters like a MDPS or RDPS and then finally realize (like I did) that your "deeps knight bro" and adding an extra 200 str at the cost of ALOT of tankiness, probably isnt worth it if you can throw those same stats into wounds and give your Sorc/BW and extra 2 seconds of free casting.