[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[th3gatekeeper]

I would go for the first idea, as that was kind of the same idea I had. But I would have proposed a much shorter cooldown, so about 5 sec, as pounce is in my point of view not only a charge but also an escape. I would have made a higer snare so about 50% (saupreusse said 90% when we discussed it irl) but only 2 sec duration, thats enough to get to target if the snare is high enough. The main reason I wouldnt recomend a stun is, so that we wont get in trouble with any imunities. The benefit would be you can use pounce still to get in fast and get out fast, but not spam it and the snare may be high but due to its short duration it doesnt give other players such a window of opportunity as a 5 sec snare. That makes it in my eyes less op. And it would do what it should do that way.

This is exactly my thinking. After reading through the first 3 pages and the last 2 pages of this thread, I come back and quote this.

I think a 15 second CD is just a little too long. 5 seconds is on the short end. I would propose a 10 second CD on pounce, but as some as said "remove the damage" I disagree, I think it SHOULD deal some damage its not a very hard hitting ability and on a 10 second CD, it seems more than fair.

As for a snare, I think 40% snare makes it on par with any other snare, no need to make it 20% or 30% as that may be too low. As for the duration" I think 5 seconds is fair.

So it would have a MAX of 50% uptime. 5 sec 40% snare, 10 sec CD with damage. I dislike a stun because it eats up that immunity timer.


My Conclusion:
+ 10s Cooldown
+ 40% 5s snare on-cast.

[bwdaWAR]

There is one detail that I haven't seen in this thread so far: when is the snare/KD/stagger/etc to be applied, when the ability is used, or when the ability damage is applied (when the WL lands after Pounce)? Is it even possible to do the first with the way Pounce is set up in the game engine? Otherwise, the WL will still land behind their target, just has the ability to catch up without Charge.

[Theseus]

There is one detail that I haven't seen in this thread so far: when is the snare/KD/stagger/etc to be applied, when the ability is used, or when the ability damage is applied (when the WL lands after Pounce)? Is it even possible to do the first with the way Pounce is set up in the game engine? Otherwise, the WL will still land behind their target, just has the ability to catch up without Charge.

In my oppinion it should be applied when used, not when damge is applied.

[wargrimnir]

There is one detail that I haven't seen in this thread so far: when is the snare/KD/stagger/etc to be applied, when the ability is used, or when the ability damage is applied (when the WL lands after Pounce)? Is it even possible to do the first with the way Pounce is set up in the game engine? Otherwise, the WL will still land behind their target, just has the ability to catch up without Charge.

On-cast, so before the WL even leaves the ground the target would be snared. With a max range pounce taking about 1s, you should only need 1s to catch up to them then perhaps get 1 attack off before needing to re-snare the target.

This will hopefully alleviate mis-fires due to the target being close to maximum range, and would at least apply a snare if a mis-fire were to occur since it should apply before a range check on the flying component. Although Aza would know for sure how the ability would be constructed.

The CD, snare duration, and snare value can be adjusted while a sweet spot is found.

[Theseus]

There is one detail that I haven't seen in this thread so far: when is the snare/KD/stagger/etc to be applied, when the ability is used, or when the ability damage is applied (when the WL lands after Pounce)? Is it even possible to do the first with the way Pounce is set up in the game engine? Otherwise, the WL will still land behind their target, just has the ability to catch up without Charge.

On-cast, so before the WL even leaves the ground the target would be snared. With a max range pounce taking about 1s, you should only need 1s to catch up to them then perhaps get 1 attack off before needing to re-snare the target.

This will hopefully alleviate mis-fires due to the target being close to maximum range, and would at least apply a snare if a mis-fire were to occur since it should apply before a range check on the flying component. Although Aza would know for sure how the ability would be constructed.

The CD, snare duration, and snare value can be adjusted while a sweet spot is found.

If it wouldnt be to much work, and it will be made that way, I would propose, we tried all 3 variations for about a month.... 15 sec cooldown+ 5 sec 50% snate, 10 sec + 5 sec 40 and if possible i really would like a 5 sec cd + 2 sec snare. Even as I personally think the best cd is somewhere between 5 and 10 sec.

[Ninepaces]

Should be 10sec cooldown I think. It would still allow for direct engagement unlike any other class but prevents the idiotic leaping across multiple opponents to travel a long distance over a short amount of time. Also WL has fetch which is also very good. Giving it a snare would make it overpowered. Why do wl players think their class deserve a second ranged snare?

[Bozzax]

Ranged snares all have CDs 15-20s I think this should be used on pounce if it is changed to a reliable ranged snare.

Please do take into account pounce is multi purpose and will be much more useful then any other ranged snare.

WLs already have a "ranged "pet based snare and if you slot pet speed it is instant with the delay of the pet moving in. Thus making you pounces very reliable even in 1v1.

Being an order realm only ability I think anything below would be a mockery to balance.

[Marsares]

Spoiler:

This patch will be applied at 01:00 British Summer Time.

[Combat and Careers]

Pet Careers

- Fixed an issue in which the pet would fail to keep up with 60% movespeed mounts.
- Fixed an issue in which the pet would attack targets, either in response to proximity or to incoming/outgoing damage, when the master was mounted.
- Fixed an issue in which the pet would blink out on the client when travelling long distances without engaging in combat.
- Fixed an issue in which a freshly summoned pet would not be in the advanced Follow state unique to pets, and would appear choppy when following.

A most welcome patch and, as always, Azarael thank you for the ridiculously short turn-around.

This goes some way to making the class more playable, although many other issues remain (i.e. terrible pathing, unresponsiveness to manually triggering pet abilities, Pounce often not triggering when on uneven terrain, etc) but I appreciate you taking the time to patch this after the heated debate in the Pounce thread.

I do hope that agile development on the WL continues. The veterans - and yourself, Azarael - know that changing Pounce without addressing the wider issues of the class is fraught with risk. I would hate to see changes with unintended consequences being introduced because people do not understand the class or blindly moderate around a single ability, and then curtains to be called on any further changes.

We should aim for what is in the best interest of the class and overall class balance, not for what is politically expedient because the pitch-fork brigade wants to see a nerf.

Putting my earlier arguments aside, because they have now been partially satisfied with the recent patch, I am willing to test changes to Pounce in order to support the principle of agile development and reiterate my view on what would be a good starting point:

Option 1:
- Cooldown: 10s - as it forces the WL to commit, without it being spammable
- Snare Proc - 50%, uncleansable
- Proc Duration - 3s, starting from triggering the Pounce damage
- Damage - no change as it's very low already and won't be spammable any longer

User has broken the following rules in this thread:

2. Do not restate a debunked point - Kept going back to pet disappearing while riding, ignoring the fact it didn't disappear mid-combat (which was what was being discussed). Broke this rule several times.
3. No reciprocal adjustments, aka: Don't appeal to your mirror- User kept talking about SHs. Broke this rule 2 times.

Finally, while not clearly stated in the rules, this post is a clear attemp to snipe a moderator ("blindly moderate"), and accuses everyone asking for changes of not understanding the class, or being in a "pitch-fork brigade".

For these reasons, Marsares is now banned from the Balance Discussion forums for 1 month. If you have issues with moderation, send a PM to Natherul or Azarael.

Penril

[th3gatekeeper]

Ranged snares all have CDs 15-20s I think this should be used on pounce if it is changed to a reliable ranged snare.

Please do take into account pounce is multi purpose and will be much more useful then any other ranged snare.

WLs already have a "ranged "pet based snare and if you slot pet speed it is instant with the delay of the pet moving in. Thus making you pounces very reliable even in 1v1.

Being an order realm only ability I think anything below would be a mockery to balance.

One of the big differences is the caster in this case (the WL) moves TO the target. Other ranged snares are from ranged classes that stay ranged and have the luxury of dealing damage at range and using their ranged snare to kite.

In this case the WL moves to that target. The snare is only used because the pounce ability had travel time and puts the WL near the target (not on top of) and due to travel time, often the target is now out of melee range, thus forcing the WL to pounce again - which is why people get mad about pounce.

Adding the snare (at the BEGINNING of the cast) allows the WL to catch the target and have a chance to melee the target.

A 10 sec CD seems more than fair. Heck, I even think making the snare last for only 2-3 seconds should be plenty at 40% that should be enough... But am willing to say 40% for 5 seconds for the sake of balance if needed.

[Bozzax]

Fair?

Lets look at how a pounce with snare can be used

• - depressure/save your BL clothie/Slayer buddy that is kiting for his life (NEW!)
  - escape certain death
  - instantly assist mdps and rdps regardless of you are being snared yourself or not
  - counter KB depressure
  - ignore any terrain obstacles (even Z axis)

Slowing down an advancing enemy? You already have a ranged perma snare on kitten.

Moving "TO" the target is not a disadvantage it is actually what makes this snare x10 as useful + compared to a normal snare.

EDIT: last part added for making it easier to understand