[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[Korhill]

This is not a 1v1 problem. It is a generell problem in any scenario. Group vs Group in Warbands. Seriously why cant you understand that. This is really so sad saying this is normal.

[Loengrin]

Spoiler:

The pet doesn't act like this in SCs, keep sieges, or pre-arranged fights. And while it can be annoying having it disappear while riding in RvR, you can easily unsummon it before mounting up. This way you can call it immediately if you see an enemy. Therefore, imho, "Disappearing pet" is not a valid argument when discussing Pounce.

However, I didn't mod the other posts because of this. They were moderated because they kept restating a debunked argument (pet disappearing in combat).

Couple videos from one person do not debunk words of a lot experienced players who play characters with pets. Never thought that this well-known fact should have video evidence, but I will record rvr/sc from now on to debunk this myth that pets don't dissapear mid-combat.

The word of experienced players means nothing by itself. Give valid arguments (and evidence). Saying "I am an experienced rr100 from live" does not automatically win your discussions - Penril.

[Loengrin]

Spoiler:

any chance of discussing the pounce proposal maybe? The bug of the disappearing pet is not up for discussion and the existence of a bug, regardless of its nature is not a point of reference for a class to have/not have something.

As long as the pet keeps magically disappearing as it so often does, linking a class defining ability (and even more of our CC) to the pet is fraught with issues.

That leaves us with the only viable proposal - pounce with CD and snare

Warning issued for restating a debunked argument, even though I have already mentioned this to several other posters - Penril

[Sgttimmen]

It is nothing short of great that you guys have the guts to explore new options and test new things, even if i don´t agree with all of them. Kudos for that. I love the WL, pet is terrible but, why not test for a while with a say 10 sec cd and autosnare/root, uncleanseable or higher dmg? Im up for anything to try out, after all, thats why we play, and in the meantime i have some damn good fun.

[adei]

After reading the initial post from wargrim and going over what the 'experienced' WL players have to say I would like to break down what I believe the change makes pounce and the benefit to it,

Pounce is a utility skill, much like charge and feline grace, so if we look at the utility that pounce offers - Instant gap closer, no penalty to movement, damage, no cooldown, decent AP cost. So when you look at it its pretty broken. I think what a lot of WL don't do is utilise the other skills available to them in order to start engagements, since pounce is so readily available it is simply the goto, even when you watch some of the 6v6 fights its just WL players spamming pounce to reach a target and even to just damage it.

The suggestion offered pretty much makes pounce what it should be, the all in move. It should be the utility skill that you use in coordination with your teammates to go for that killing blow, not the skill that you use freely and with almost no penalty to. Adding a cooldown to pounce in no way destroys the mobility of the WL, it has a charge and feline grace. It also make pounce more punishable than it already is, which it should be, its the best gap closer in the game with no drawbacks, and before the argument of it takes you away from guard comes in I'm going to argue any decent player/group will have the communication to counter this.

In regards to proposition one, I like it, an initial snare which you can follow up with CL, so your target is still not going to get away ( most likely ) if you use it as an all in, as you can still use the other utilities to capatalize on it. I would have liked to see pounce work like force leap from SWTOR, where as it becomes a baseline skill that has a cd, and you can spec into it to make it better, with either a snare or some extra bonus. But I think an initial snare is more than sufficient to stick to the intended target.

In regards to option 2 I think changes to longer should be made regardless, giving a playstyle that does not revolve around the pet or its damage might take away a lot of the micro management involved in WL play, but again more options to playstyle is always fun.

If I was to change anything I would make pounce do 0 damage, it's a gap closer, it should not provide you with damage, considering the damage the WL already has its utility skills should not do direct damage, once you are in you should be in and have to deal with the consequences, I feel these changes make pounce a more tactical skill and will require more coordination from a group of players to utilise effectively.

[Kattastrof]

Spoiler:

If I was to change anything I would make pounce do 0 damage, it's a gap closer, it should not provide you with damage, considering the damage the WL already has its utility skills should not do direct damage, once you are in you should be in and have to deal with the consequences, I feel these changes make pounce a more tactical skill and will require more coordination from a group of players to utilise effectively.

You sir are a genius! I defenitely approve of 0 dmg pounce!

No "+1" posts - Penril.

[Korhill]

What the WL offers was always Mobility and Burst. And if you give it a 15 sec CD that definitly kills his mobilitiy in my opinion and the playstyle of the WL. Burst can be cut down also when you kill the pet. I just say becarful with those changes. Only thing i would change is that you cant pounce back in mid Air. Like someone said before Pounce is WL.

[Korhill]

The class has issues. And months before in threads it was always mentioned that we have to do something with the WL aka give him something before even thinking to change pounce.

[UmmOK]

The class has issues. And months before in threads it was always mentioned that we have to do something with the WL aka give him something before even thinking to change pounce.

While I agree with you about "fixing" the class, I honestly believe that until you take away the "crutch" that is the current version of Pounce, you will not likely see clearly the issues that needs be addressed with the class. As evidenced here in this discussion, the pet AI and bugs are a topic for discussion, but I'm sure that once Pounce becomes a tactical tool, other class issues will rear up for discussion.

The good news is that "this is Alpha" and the developers are holding these discussions and making changes to better the classes and the game. While I may not like some of these changes as an opposing player, I have adopted a wait and see attitude. Take my notes as to what's going on with my group in game, develop counter tactics, and move along.

A 10 second cooldown does not break the ability or the class. You still get a great gap closer with a mild snare of sorts to ensure you are on target. While I don't agree with a zero damage proposal, I can also see why that suggestion was made. For any other class to close a gap, apply a snare, and land an attack, you would be talking about 60-75 AP, a 15 sec CD on snare + immunity afterward, and roughly 4 seconds of game time. Pounce has (or may have) all those aspects at a cost of 30 AP.

If given the choice of what to test, I'd keep the damage as is. Given that Pounce with a cooldown is no longer the "only" mode of transport for the WL and is being seen and made into a tactical ability, raise the AP cost to 40 AP. You are still roughly saving 45% of the AP other classes would spend for the same effect. AND it has the added benefit of forcing the WL to use Pounce more judiciously in game.

[Theseus]

The class has issues. And months before in threads it was always mentioned that we have to do something with the WL aka give him something before even thinking to change pounce.

While I agree with you about "fixing" the class, I honestly believe that until you take away the "crutch" that is the current version of Pounce, you will not likely see clearly the issues that needs be addressed with the class. As evidenced here in this discussion, the pet AI and bugs are a topic for discussion, but I'm sure that once Pounce becomes a tactical tool, other class issues will rear up for discussion.

The good news is that "this is Alpha" and the developers are holding these discussions and making changes to better the classes and the game. While I may not like some of these changes as an opposing player, I have adopted a wait and see attitude. Take my notes as to what's going on with my group in game, develop counter tactics, and move along.

A 10 second cooldown does not break the ability or the class. You still get a great gap closer with a mild snare of sorts to ensure you are on target. While I don't agree with a zero damage proposal, I can also see why that suggestion was made. For any other class to close a gap, apply a snare, and land an attack, you would be talking about 60-75 AP, a 15 sec CD on snare + immunity afterward, and roughly 4 seconds of game time. Pounce has (or may have) all those aspects at a cost of 30 AP.

If given the choice of what to test, I'd keep the damage as is. Given that Pounce with a cooldown is no longer the "only" mode of transport for the WL and is being seen and made into a tactical ability, raise the AP cost to 40 AP. You are still roughly saving 45% of the AP other classes would spend for the same effect. AND it has the added benefit of forcing the WL to use Pounce more judiciously in game.

As far as I know, we cant change AP-Costs right now. As Azarael explained here.

I'll list what is NOT possible.

- Adding new skills, tactics, morales.

- Updating any of the client tooltips or information. This precludes us from changing anything over which the client has absolute authority. Examples: AP cost, range, cast time, target type, requirements (blue text such as "Requires Shield") etc. I play fast and loose with AP cost on the AM/Shaman mechanic only because it's consistent across all spells affected by the mechanic at that time.

The exception to the above is the case where the server has control over that information or we can send a buff that modifies that information. This is how Engi/Magus range is implemented - the server sends an unrelated buff, True Magic, to extend the range. The client can read the components of that buff and extend the range of all spells on its side. It's also how the AM/Shaman mechanic works - there's a buff received by the client which corresponds to the cast time of spells under the mechanic's effect at the given number of points, and the new mechanic sends 60 for all. All of these components exist clientside - so if we can't find an existing buff using a component that does what we want, then we can't do it.

We can do anything else - tweak values, reorder mastery trees, add new serverside functionality, etc. with the caveat that we will not be able to update the client's tooltips.