[Rejected] Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

[Danielle]

Marauder & WL roots in addition to Champion's Challenge are the only 2 skills in game that reliably prevent ranged characters from kiting indefinitely. I believe ranged characters should be able to kite, but I also believe you should have potential damage windows on them. The argument that ranged should never get caught in melee is (I would hope) out of the question. Simply charging at ranged with snare immunity or pouncing is not an option, because tanks get left behind in such scenarios and mdps without guard will die when they are stranded in enemy lines.

I don't believe just having Champion's Challenge in the game is enough. Therefore the root effect is in my mind highly necessary to keep some variability in group compositions, other than just ranged groups, or groups fully reliant on Champion's Challenge. WL & Mara roots provide this window and that is why they should stay in some form. Now I will readily agree that 900 damage in addition to a 10s root is overpowered for a morale 1. There are many potential solutions. The damage can be reduced or even removed completely, but the effect that is essential for melee comps facing ranged could be kept. It could be changed to be a m2 instead of a m1. The duration of the snare could be decreased. I am not a great fan of having a damage threshold break the root, because the damage window it would provide would not be sufficient to apply enough pressure, but it is also a possibility, because it will allow for the melee train to catch up.

And in before someone comes in and says ranged are irrelevant in the meta, they're not at all. My guild runs hybrid groups, Fusion runs ranged/hybrid groups that do very well, Legion of Boom is at the top with several ranged comps and hybrid comps as well, Exodus run a great ranged group. If anything hybrid groups/ranged groups are probably doing slightly better than melee comps.

[Bephamoth]

Unfortunately i couldnt find a video where a Marauder used a 10 second FoF in newer videos since they for 'some' reason most of the time had their Parry M1 in the majority of videos, or rather used their M2.

Yep. Simply because Confusing Movements is far better.

Flames of Fate was a self heal (they had no morale root before that ridiculous patch)

Back in the old good time...

If FoF was a heal, then whats the point of Tzeetch’s reversal?

Tzeentch's Reversal was doing both T1 morales, Sever Nerve + Flames of Fate.

About the balance discussion;
Keep in mind I do not like FoF and will ever use parry morale BUT,
FoF/Snare seems to be very effective in large scale battles where ranged can't manage to be root in place for 10 sec agains the heavy focus such battle size can put on them and do not have enough tools to counter it multiple times.
Looking to others M1 disables I'm ok to say that this morale is OP because of:
- 65ft range.
Or
- unbreakable.
Or
- deal root AND damages.

If you want to fix it you should simply remove one of the point above.
I bet removing the «unbreakable» component and add % break chance Azarael propose is a good option but I do not believe in any damage threasold coz it ll be subject to too much specific situations. 25% chance to break on any attack and dot you proposed in last patch note is far too much and would make the root unreliable.
Best way I guess is a different %chance to break like, let's say, 20% on skill, 15% on attack and 10% on dot tick.
It would give the target enough chance to break free and enough chance for the dps to focus him enough time to have a decent chance to kill him if the target party doesnt manage to defend their ally.

Other way, if you dont remove the unbreakable, is to remove range and make it a melee attack (harder to use but worthy if landed) or reduce the root to 5 sec (good way to fix it in the simpliest way) or remove the damages (i do not believe this ll fix the matter because this is a large scall issue and such damages is pretty insignifiant).

Thanks for reading and sorry for my bad english. :p

[Teefz]

Spoiler:

Flames of Fate / Ensnare are Morale 1, 65ft range, 75% of Sever Nerve damage, instant 10s roots which do not break on damage, hosted by MDPS classes.

I'm interested in hearing about how these abilities are of appropriate strength for M1 and why it is absolutely necessary that they should not break on damage at all, in the context of the two classes that host them. Consider that I believe the most appropriate change for these abilities is that they break after the target has received in the region of 1k-2k damage while under their effect, and that in general, I would like to see break chances for roots changed to a consistent threshold-type break.

Just curious here, shouldn't IB's M1 Rock Clutch be a part of this discussion? Obv. not in regards to 65ft range or the fact that it only deals 50% of Sever Nerve damage.

Spoiler by Penril - We are discussing Ensnare / FoF.

[TenTonHammer]

Spoiler:

Also kotbs m3?

Spoiler by Penril - We are discussing Ensnare / FoF.

[Bozzax]

In the context of there being counter play to FoF/ensnare like "some other guy then wingz" explained and there is also 0 proof of them being breakable on live.

What are we balancing here? Mara/WLs, those specific M1s or morale roots generally?

[Aranael]

Personally i don't think that you can justify a nerf (regarding the root behavior) which would only affect 2 specific morals as they do have the same counterplay possibilities as all other root morales - Champions Challenge excluded -.

If you want to nerf the root behavior, it should affect all morales including Rock Clutch, Paralyzing Nightmares and No Escape.
Both morales PN and NE do offer more damage and an aoe root which has an insane impact into both large and small scale fights. Combined with Glorious Carnage, PN will be available within no time, so the argument "one is morale 4" is irrelevant.

Both morales (FoF & Ensnare) are mainly used to prevent rdps classes from kiting. As mentioned in the other thread Focused Mind and Root breaks in general are perfect counterplays against both FoF and Ensnare. If one decides to run Unshackable Focus over Focused Mind he took offensive- over defensive potential. This, in turn should make him more vulnerable to offensive morales such as FoF/Ensnare. In fact the rdps can still play safe and stay within his safezone (100f) even when playing with US.

What we could probably argue about is that those morales both share a range of 65f combined with morale dmg. That in fact could lead to the assumption that those morales are a bit "overpowered". Hence i suggest to remove the damage so they can no longer be used to morale dump. Nerfing the range would shut down there purpose and nobody would use it any longer. As mentioned above i don't see the root/range being a problem. It has more than one counterplay (immunities, root breaks, focused mind). The additional damage is a bit off but and could be removed without losing the uniqueness and purpose of those morales.

[Styrkarr]

I don't really see why "No Escape" should be in this topic.
Okay it's a root too, but it's breakable by a simple Juggernaut. It's 30ft only and it's a M3, and i want to make you remember that Kotbs don't have a tactic like Destined for Victory (the chosen one) so it's pretty long to get the M3.

Imo, i'm just using NE for the 1200 aoe damage, the root is only a bonus because 75% of the time people are immune, or will break the root.

[Aranael]

but it's breakable by a simple Juggernaut.

75% of the time people are immune, or will break the root.

despite the fact that one is m3 and one is m1, where is the difference compared to FoF/Ensare within the quotes?

[Tesq]

Kobs m3 it' used after targets had used their cc remove so of couse you cannot expect to just throw it around but rather force you destru player to use it to remove bilions of snares.


Moreover the discussion was about these moral 1 be too stronger to be moral 1, that's why my comarison x points in first page.
In that regard damages vs other morales
Durability of the root vs range vs still be able to move and additional comparison with champion challenge if you want or need even if indeed aza sticked to serve nerve comparision i belive in page one. While aza just call in serve nerve to compare the damages the morale should stay in a middle ground between serve nerves and CC or it's too good.

[Bozzax]

Even if damage on Ensnare/FoF was set to 0 no one (sane) would take SN.