Racial group fixing.

[Jaycub]

Magus is not 'top-tier' in a warband; it merely becomes 'useful' because of rift.

How to prove this: can a WB with sorcerers/doks/chosens or slayers/kotbs/WP achieve success against equally-geared and even numbered opposition? Yes. Can a WB with just magi do the same? No. You bring the magus for one thing only, and that is rift.

No you don't, you have several tools of the Magus thats really good in warbands, Better staggers, Better Spirit Ressist debuff, Rift, AoE knockdown, And you know what, when Magus actually get to set up properly ther dps output is actually just a couple of points behind the Sorcs. with no backlash. You just proven how bad you know how warbands play out.
Choppas, Zealots, Black Orcs, Marauders and Shamans are just as important to a warband if you face competent oppsition.

Staggers won't last long in ORvR and to get a meaningful stagger on healers in their backline requires the magus to be essentially front line in most cases, you only need 1 magus for the resist debuff. For magus DPS output to even come close to sorc I'm pretty sure your targets would have to be standing in mist which again don't stack with each other like shatter shadows spam would.

What peter is trying to say is magus is a niche role where you would only want 1 or 2 in a warband mostly to use rift to pull vulnerable backline enemies into the front lines to get massacred.

Remove CC immunities and magus would become a whole hell of a lot better in RvR :^)

[Bozzax]

I think you should re-read this thread.

Re read the first sentance and ask yourself if there are any proof backing it up

[Nekkma]

Why do you need proof? He says slowly distancing from racial groups. The statement is rather wide and can encompass alot. You can for instance not prove that it is false and again why would you need to, this is a discussion forum not a court. He asks for changes to make, in his mind, racial groups more viable. Not to change the game to only cater to racial groups. Even if I don't agree with most of his suggested changes I agree with his basic idea

Personally, I think it is obvious that AoR was designed for racial groups/racial synergy to work. Note "work", not beeing the end all be all group. As with many othe things myhtic never bothered to fix things that turned out not working (except with empire bombing wbs for a while).

[Bozzax]

Personally, I think it is obvious that AoR was designed for racial groups/racial synergy to work

May I ask what this is based on considering they underperformed compared to a mixed group and morales for example was available to all races?

Again consider the game when making city wbs would not put same race in groups. It just made mixed groups.

Why isn't there a single post or intervju from 2008-2014 talking about this designed feature of the game? I mean there are about 10 explaining crafting

[Nekkma]

Underperforming is not an argument I would say. Just look at AM/shaman. Is there any doubt that they where designed as hybrids? Did hybrid playstyle underperform compared to either pure healer/dps? Very much so.

My main argument, or perhaps "feeling" rather than argument, I guess would be the user experience. Back in 2008, the first time I left greenskin/dwarf pairing was in the middle of T3. Until then i had basically only played with greenskins against dwarfs. Another argument is the old renowntactics which gave synergies to having more of the same race in groups. I would also say that the fact that each races has all archetypes and, without checking up, most buffs/debuffs within the race.

Again, I want to stress that I think that Mythic wanted racial groups to work, i.e. be somewhat competitive, but failed with the implementation (mainly because of really bad class balance). I do not claim that the game is designed only with racial groups/synergies in mind or even that it was a major concern.

[Gobtar]

I like ^

I don't

This thread either should provide proof of this being a designed feature of WAR or be presented as an idea how we can change ROR for the better.

Arguing with someone tha thinks big bang and racial warbands are similar is pathetic.

Again give us some sources outside of ror and keep it short. One would be enough

You don't have to like what I said, but you didn't counter my opinions either, I might not agree with where Footpatrol originated his idea on "Racial" warbands, however I see no harm in rewarding themed parties which may make the meta more diverse at a time when we are beyond balancing faction vs faction.

[footpatrol2]

Well these are just suggestions obviously. I am just a average mouthbreather so...

I was playing a magus at the time when they moved Mist to the 13 point ability and IFOC to the 9 point ability. It used to be flip flopped. I hated that change. Hence the suggestion.

I disliked the magus getting deamonic reach because it was done for more mirror pushing. In my opinion Mirror pushing strips the classes from their uniqueness.

Almost all of those changes are just rollbacks with a twist. I tried to address the issue's that those morale abilities caused for mixed groups. Having the correct morale gain thing is HUGE. Not the racial morale gain tactic but just the normal morale gain with a full group.

I am going to explain why that redirection tactic exists. This is theorycrafting so...be warned

Spoiler:

So for the chaos faction HTL is pretty important. Chosen's can permanently hold the line if they take the chaotic advantage tactic and their guarded target is taking damage.

You don't have to hold the line permanently. I want to be clear on that. Its just a trick in your bag that you can use if the situation calls for it. If you get enough hold the line out there (3) your giving 45% dodge and disrupt to everyone behind you for 50 ft. if You have a corruption chosen in your group and he is running the corrupting retribution aura HTL turns into a trashy group heal to his entire group. Just some tricks... Anyway thats how magus's would get their disrupt.

When was it thought that you would permanently hold the line? At a keep defense when the wall goes down with a tank wall. Granted tank walls have fell out of favor now with the community. The tank wall isn't a lasting strategy. You would have other tricks but you could maintain it for like 30 sec's if needed.

A characteristic of the chaos faction is endless AP feeds. They can get over the top AP feeds. Basically the best out of any faction. The Chaos faction in my opinion are super good at keep defenses. It was thought that redirection tactic would be used in a keep defense. You wouldn't have redirection tactic slotted in all situations but you could slot it in a keep defense. You would do a tactic slot switch.

Should redirection tactic make a comeback? I don't know. Maybe its too niche. A lot of tactic's that don't get used become useful in a racial group. redirection tactic falls into this spot. Maybe redirection tactic should just be standard as it was and a different tactic be used/created to fill in that spec specific tactic that would replace deamonic reach.

I can understand why players may think that the redirection tactic is weak.

[footpatrol2]

So Somethin that can be done to knock knights/chosen's off their being top tier in mixed groups and still maintain their benefit to racial groups is:

Have all chosen aura's only affect Chaos players. Only the buffing portion of the aura affects the chaos faction. The debuff is unaffected.

Have all knight aura's only affect Empire players. Only the buffing portion of the aura affects the Empire faction. The debuff is unaffected.

I'd rather see something like this then screwing around with the knight/Chosen punting tactic.

[Gobtar]

Dude, could you please have a conversation with us, what's the point of posting in a thread when you seemingly babble on to yourself ignoring the discourse?

[footpatrol2]

The above post is in response to TenTonhammer's post in another thread. Instead of Derailing that thread I decided to post here as I felt it was more relavent here then there. I should have listed his quote sorry.

Instead of screwing with the punting tactic, you go to the root cause of why chosen's and knights are top tier for mixed groups, all while not screwing over the racial groups.

That punting tactic is put there for a reason.

What I'm trying to prevent, is RoR picking up the torch where mythic left off in its slow distancing from racial groups.

TenTonhammer quote

Spoiler:

In relation to KOTBS/CH superpunts, i feel the tactics should only inc the punt distance not also reduce its CD to 10s

I disagree. It should include the cooldown.

Because KOTBS and CH are totally not the top tier tanks in this game, that are soo strong their mandatory in every party and in in not way needing the nerf hammer.

Additionally having a tactic thats soo good its basically mandatory on every CH or KOTBS, one that turns the only thing remotly mediocre about them; their meh punts into the shortest cooldown super punts in the game while have no requiremnts or resource cost is fair and balanced in your eyes?

Thats good to know