Nerfed Buttons

[Dalgrimar]

@Aza: being able to reach 2365235534 keybinds = skill? Totally disagree. You have some Mobas out there with like only 5 or 6 skills which require WAY more skill than WAR. Mobas with tournaments that grant thousands of dollars in prizes as well.

Agree, 90% of the skill as based around situational awareness and positioning, not about how much buttons you can press.

[Zealote]

@Aza: being able to reach 2365235534 keybinds = skill? Totally disagree. You have some Mobas out there with like only 5 or 6 skills which require WAY more skill than WAR. Mobas with tournaments that grant thousands of dollars in prizes as well.

Azarael said "[...] managing key allocations and executing the right combinations without making a mistake is a skill." (emphasis added), not that it's the only, or even main, determiner of skill. If you don't think there's any truth at all in what he actually said, I doubt you've had much experience without that 12-button mouse.

As I said earlier, I keybind everything except potions (cos I don't have room). The keys used are:

- 1-5/6 (6 only for abilities that aren't needed 'urgently' cos it's a stretch)
- Alt 1-4/5
- Shift 1-3/4
- Q, E, R, T, F, G, C, V, \ (backslash, easier than Z for me)
- Alt Q, Alt E, Alt R, Alt D
- F2, F3, F4, F5
- The key to the left one 1 (for targeting)

Obv don't use not all of them on every class, but I do, for example, on IB. I imagine that's harder than the struggles your poor thumb faces ( ), and it's highly likely more prone to hitting the wrong key (which I do occasionally, and there are times when it's led to me dying).

[Dalgrimar]

I have never disputed that it is an advantage but that is not an issue because almost all addons are. My argument to keep it is basically that i do not think a removal will make the game better. As I am here because i loved AOR I prefer a restoration of that game with as few changes as possible. In short, I want the AOR experience.

I remember the devs saying the idea of this server was to bring back the AoR experience instead of making a whole new game.
I notice they dont go with this statement annymore since a long time wich is sad.
I play aswell for the original AoR experience not to play a whole new game with devs changing/implenting everything pugs tells them.
EDIT: You may aswell change this server name to Return of Reckoning Inspired New Game.

[RyanMakara]

As I said earlier, I keybind everything except potions (cos I don't have room). The keys used are:

- 1-5/6 (6 only for abilities that aren't needed 'urgently' cos it's a stretch)
- Alt 1-4/5
- Shift 1-3/4
- Q, E, R, T, F, G, C, V, \ (backslash, easier than Z for me)
- Alt Q, Alt E, Alt R, Alt D
- F2, F3, F4, F5
- The key to the left one 1 (for targeting)

Obv don't use not all of them on every class, but I do, for example, on IB. I imagine that's harder than the struggles your poor thumb faces ( ), and it's highly likely more prone to hitting the wrong key (which I do occasionally, and there are times when it's led to me dying).

An Ironbreaker to my own heart, I relate so much to this.

[Azarael]

I have never disputed that it is an advantage but that is not an issue because almost all addons are. My argument to keep it is basically that i do not think a removal will make the game better. As I am here because i loved AOR I prefer a restoration of that game with as few changes as possible. In short, I want the AOR experience.

I remember the devs saying the idea of this server was to bring back the AoR experience instead of making a whole new game.
I notice they dont go with this statement annymore since a long time wich is sad.
I play aswell for the original AoR experience not to play a whole new game with devs changing/implenting everything pugs tells them.
EDIT: You may aswell change this server name to Return of Reckoning Inspired New Game.

This server doesn't make changes based on what PUG players say, it makes them based on debate. This gets under some people's skin, because they have never been able to debate, and have relied upon either:

1. Their reputation
2. Shouting people down as a mob
3. Repeatedly regurgitating the same opinion without addressing any points.

Everyone gets a voice in influencing this server, and experience speaks for itself - just as it did when the Guard thread came about or the 2h tank thread or the SM/BO discussions or anything else. In the exact same way, ignorance is easily disproven.

But by all means, continue to imply that changes are made to satisfy PUGs rather than tackling the substance of the problem, which is that there exists an addon which can make choices for players, react faster than humanly possible and simplify the execution side to a significant extent in a genre which is already renowned for removing emphasis on individual skill.

As for your wishes about Age of Reckoning? Geni said it before. This isn't a 1.4.8 restoration project. We're aiming to make the game what it could have been and more. That will include making decisions that you don't agree with. That's unfortunate, but these decisions on direction are open for discussion and debate and if that debate doesn't go your way, that's that. I don't give a single damn about appeals to tradition or what Mythic's original developers did or supported. We consider things on their own merits here. They don't get a free pass because they existed in Age of Reckoning.

[Penril]

Azarael said "[...] managing key allocations and executing the right combinations without making a mistake is a skill." (emphasis added), not that it's the only, or even main, determiner of skill. If you don't think there's any truth at all in what he actually said, I doubt you've had much experience without that 12-button mouse.

I believe there is probably very, very little truth in that statement (when talking about RoR). There is a difference between exexuting a long juggle-combo in a Fighting game (where you have to press very specific buttons and your timing has to be perfect) and going from pressing 1 to ctrl+9 on your keyboard to use a specific skill. The only skill I see there is keybinding; those who happened to keybind their skills in a friendlier way will have an advantage over some people who still use the default keybinds, for example.

Don't get me wrong; i DO agree that NB gives some unfair advantages (mostly decision making things like positional requirements, or checking immunities). But i don't see anything wrong with using an addon that lets you reduce your number of keybinds. If we could have something like that (which didn't check for conditionals) everyone would be happy.

And I have a LOT of experience with crappy Keyboards and mouses.

[Azarael]

A point has to be conceded here, which is that the ability to consolidate keybinds itself is a design flaw and one which was recognised by WAR's own developers, when they made the much-loathed statement about WAR having "too many skills". A system which provides tons of skills, yet has an optimal order for execution of these skills (and no room to exploit predictability in that order, like fighting games or strategy games would offer for certain combinations and build orders respectively) is guilty of poor design, as that combination would be better and more honestly resolved by offering a single skill which behaves exactly as the chain would until broken.

I'm a big fan of formalizing things, which is why the auras were changed on this server. That way, if dealing damage as a class boils down to 1 1 1 1 1, we can be honest about it and say that the class's damage mechanism is no more than "press 1 to obliterate dudes" and that any tactical, execution or timing difficulty inherent within the skill system for annihilating people can be totally disregarded. That stops people from using a varied interpretation depending on which perspective they're trying to support.

[bloodi]

But that is the problem with NB, what makes it just pressing 1 and letting the addon decide is NB, not the game.

There is plenty of situations where you better stop pressing your rotation, the thing is NB will make that decision for you while others have to see it for themselves.

And of course addons that remove clutter are a great thing but thats also why a lot of people wants to know how much can we tweak to make NB partially work or not, no one is against a cast sequencer so people who are impaired can play.

People are against an addon making decisions for you, thats all.

[Azarael]

Indeed. In light of the above, I think talking about keybind consolidation and execution simplification any further would just feed ammunition along a weak attack vector. I'd refine my previous statements to say that it is NB's ability to make decisions for the player, and also its reaction speed while doing so which are the reasons it should be banned.

[Foofighter]

@Aza: being able to reach 2365235534 keybinds = skill? Totally disagree. You have some Mobas out there with like only 5 or 6 skills which require WAY more skill than WAR. Mobas with tournaments that grant thousands of dollars in prizes as well.

Azarael said "[...] managing key allocations and executing the right combinations without making a mistake is a skill." (emphasis added), not that it's the only, or even main, determiner of skill. If you don't think there's any truth at all in what he actually said, I doubt you've had much experience without that 12-button mouse.

As I said earlier, I keybind everything except potions (cos I don't have room). The keys used are:

- 1-5/6 (6 only for abilities that aren't needed 'urgently' cos it's a stretch)
- Alt 1-4/5
- Shift 1-3/4
- Q, E, R, T, F, G, C, V, \ (backslash, easier than Z for me)
- Alt Q, Alt E, Alt R, Alt D
- F2, F3, F4, F5
- The key to the left one 1 (for targeting)

Obv don't use not all of them on every class, but I do, for example, on IB. I imagine that's harder than the struggles your poor thumb faces ( ), and it's highly likely more prone to hitting the wrong key (which I do occasionally, and there are times when it's led to me dying).

may i suggest maybe trying a shift+Q,E,R,T,G,C,V , for me the pink on shift or ctrl still allows me to reach the rest of the keys, i use numbers between 1-8 with my mouse the q and e for targeting , r, f and c all with the shift and ctrl corespondents that's so many keybinds right there even if i only went from 1-4 on the keybord and didnt have the mouse.

edit: i know you probably already know this and dont use it because you dont like it, but ill leave for any who want it XD