Overarching balance changes

[Vigfuss]

@Jackiee

Yeah the grind is a pain 100% agree, but I'm sure you guys had fun doing what you did even if it wasn't a lot. A group like that can gets tons of experience (and i don't mean xp) just Qing SCs where you face other PMs and also in open RVR, although 6 vs Organized WB is a huge pain in the ass and means constant kiting and always watching for a mounted WB.

And quite a few times we've been ganked, actually ganked by a WB+. Literally a whole WB hiding, stacked up somewhere so they could pull + AoE spam our group before we could kite them.

For the brief few hours, we had a lot of fun actually, was addicting. We queued a lot of scs, but as someone mentioned above, frequently for a decent premade you get things like 20 wins in a row. At that point people are just super bored, then the next day when I say scs the answer is "whats the point, its not fun". For example, peter admitted most of his chars (his main?) is still rr40, so I draw from that, that he too is not enjoying the scenario spam against pugs. At that point the people I know for example would rather just go play Dota2/CSGO/Overwatch etc.

The disparity between playing a real 6v6, and playing a random scenario feels just too large. The environments are ultimately just not similar enough. Many times the people playing in my team asked after a scenario "why are we doing this, this plays nothing like the 6v6 we have in CW". I dont want to be all doom and gloom and derail this further, but I felt I needed to really emphasize the biggest reason theres so little new blood into 6v6 is because theres no platform to really practice on.

We just need more groups doing that, and hopefully some more small groups doing ORVR as well. That would just make the game a lot better for everyone. A better chance of having a friendly PM on your side in SC (if you pug), more CW, and more small scale fights in ORVR. To me that's a win all around.

[Haojin]

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[peterthepan3]

@Jackiee

Yeah the grind is a pain 100% agree, but I'm sure you guys had fun doing what you did even if it wasn't a lot. A group like that can gets tons of experience (and i don't mean xp) just Qing SCs where you face other PMs and also in open RVR, although 6 vs Organized WB is a huge pain in the ass and means constant kiting and always watching for a mounted WB.

And quite a few times we've been ganked, actually ganked by a WB+. Literally a whole WB hiding, stacked up somewhere so they could pull + AoE spam our group before we could kite them.

For the brief few hours, we had a lot of fun actually, was addicting. We queued a lot of scs, but as someone mentioned above, frequently for a decent premade you get things like 20 wins in a row. At that point people are just super bored, then the next day when I say scs the answer is "whats the point, its not fun". For example, peter admitted most of his chars (his main?) is still rr40, so I draw from that, that he too is not enjoying the scenario spam against pugs. At that point the people I know for example would rather just go play Dota2/CSGO/Overwatch etc.

The disparity between playing a real 6v6, and playing a random scenario feels just too large. The environments are ultimately just not similar enough. Many times the people playing in my team asked after a scenario "why are we doing this, this plays nothing like the 6v6 we have in CW". I dont want to be all doom and gloom and derail this further, but I felt I needed to really emphasize the biggest reason theres so little new blood into 6v6 is because theres no platform to really practice on.

Good points. There seems to be a lack of current interest. What we must do as a community is think of ways to rectify that. Ideally the game would cater to both sets of people, and so we must bear that in mind. I would like to see an active 6v6 community, a thriving RvR scene with large guilds going at it daily, and the opportunities for pugs to contribute and play as they want.

[Eathisword]

Spoiler:

@Jackiee

Yeah the grind is a pain 100% agree, but I'm sure you guys had fun doing what you did even if it wasn't a lot. A group like that can gets tons of experience (and i don't mean xp) just Qing SCs where you face other PMs and also in open RVR, although 6 vs Organized WB is a huge pain in the ass and means constant kiting and always watching for a mounted WB.

And quite a few times we've been ganked, actually ganked by a WB+. Literally a whole WB hiding, stacked up somewhere so they could pull + AoE spam our group before we could kite them.

For the brief few hours, we had a lot of fun actually, was addicting. We queued a lot of scs, but as someone mentioned above, frequently for a decent premade you get things like 20 wins in a row. At that point people are just super bored, then the next day when I say scs the answer is "whats the point, its not fun". For example, peter admitted most of his chars (his main?) is still rr40, so I draw from that, that he too is not enjoying the scenario spam against pugs. At that point the people I know for example would rather just go play Dota2/CSGO/Overwatch etc.

The disparity between playing a real 6v6, and playing a random scenario feels just too large. The environments are ultimately just not similar enough. Many times the people playing in my team asked after a scenario "why are we doing this, this plays nothing like the 6v6 we have in CW". I dont want to be all doom and gloom and derail this further, but I felt I needed to really emphasize the biggest reason theres so little new blood into 6v6 is because theres no platform to really practice on.

Good points. There seems to be a lack of current interest. What we must do as a community is think of ways to rectify that. Ideally the game would cater to both sets of people, and so we must bear that in mind. I would like to see an active 6v6 community, a thriving RvR scene with large guilds going at it daily, and the opportunities for pugs to contribute and play as they want.

What you want, imo, cant happen. You cannot keep solo puggers happy (getting reward for playing ''their way'') AND getting a healthy group instanced PVP community.

The lack of ladders in instanced PvP is killing any competitive play in WAR, as new blood cant ''get there'', like Jackie said, and solo players are rewarded for staying solo players forever. I know lots of WAR players don'T like WoW, but the scenario/arena design (balanced classes/PvP design is something else) is great for that. When you start out, you fight other noobs. You learn in random Battlegrounds solo queing. But as soon as you want good PVP gear, the game coerce you into grouping up. Then, you learn against your piers at 1000 rating, you learn your class. Then you graduate and fight 1500 people, you discover the use of simple macro, basic CC chain, etc. Then you graduate again around 1800. And so on, you play against players with = skill, until you get better and graduate (or stagnate) all the way to gladiator rank in the top 1%.

In WAR, you are never coerced to group. So you can solo queue and have your first game versus CCM and you'll lose. 2nd game, critical Acclaim : lose again. 3rd game, Kappapride : lose again. Then you go RvR, find strength in numbers and never look back. The dynamic is simple : in scen, you must be better/more organized than the other team. In RvR, you can just be more people.

Im all for having 1 or 2 scens dedicated to solo queuers. But in the end, imo, it won't matter for the premades. Unless there is some kind of mechanism that in the end, forces player to group up and get better. What WAR lacks is simply this : in RvR you cant do much by yourself for the campaign, the incentive to group up is arguably there. In scenario, you can get everything solo. You shouldn't be allowed to, in my humble opinion, as this is an MMO. The game needs to coerce you to group up and get better to get the rewards you want.

TL/DR
Stick/carrot = coerce the mule to go foward. If you just keep feeding the mule for not doing anything useful, its gonna get fat, lazy and lead you nowhere.

[peterthepan3]

It's true. I've always advocated healthy and competitive group instanced PvP but the reality is the vast majority of the server are casual players, hence my saying that (in an ideal world!) it would be nice to have a scenario or two for these sorts of players who can then go into the lakes, find a warband, play for an hour or so, and retire their evening with some scenarios against other like minded players of the same caliber so they don't get slaughtered - while the rest of us do our elite lulul whatever-you-wanna-call-it PvP. In this respect I think it could work but, ultimately, it boils down to people changing their perspective and putting in a bit more effort.

[lilsabin]

as i said before and continue to support , the problem of this game is all about getting group and organisation and all this . Most of us dont have time to organise , not because we dont want to , but because real life priorities and involvement in other things/games . As a PUG , this game is really annoying , and that shouldnt be it . we need to think about another META then group synergy play and aoe damage/heal everything . And that will start by making every class and THEIR WHOLE SPEC TREE (3) VIABLE . For exemple , in WoW , if u pick a class , no matter what tree spec u chose , u dont feel useless in the game , even a shadow priest is viable .

[grumcajs]

deleted the walls of text:

rvr - means realm. I have nothing about premades and I agree there is nothing atm they can do now. maybe once BOs aremade important it would open new posibilites fro them to participate in realm vs realm game.

pugs that actually wants a fight and do not leave the moment they see release button - nothing wrong with them at all

zerg sufers who just follow warband around and rather semi afk then play the game - yea problem

pugs who wants to play - need to fight coordinated grp. there is no way how they can get better without some challenge

same for premades - they wont get better if they would fight in scens (grp based. not realm based instanced pvp made like for premades, unlike orvr) just 3 dps tanks, random dps and 1 heal, 1 dps heal. it wouldnt (in 90% scenarios) make it challenge for them thus they wont get better and they got bored.

premades that roam the lake and do not cooperate or communicate with other players in the zone (be it with other premades or even pugs - useless bunch of guys as long as they play the game from grp based pov instead of premade pov. again - maybe once BOs are made important it might give these spec-ops chance to work in more friendly enviroment and contribute to realm.

[roadkillrobin]

The thing is, that this game was never designed for 6v6.

6v6 will always have 3-4 classes out of 12 per side be completly dominant. In 6v6 even a class with the Slayer/Choppa mechanic is almoast not even punished and can much easier to go full Berzerk 95% of the time compared to 18v18 for example were incomming damage completly changes everything. 6v6 almoast completly exlcludes casters as they becomes a massive unreliabillity were in 12v12 for example their class starts to shine in a completly different light as there actually is a frontline that can cover em.

The 6v6 WoW Arena style game is shoehorned into this game by it's community. In 1.2.1 a 6v6 scenario were added to this game (Modified Gates of Ekerund) to increase the rate in wich scenarios pop in t2 and t3 for a couple months. It was ONLY availible for lvl 18-24. It wasn't a sucess and later removed again When the game got a massive overhaul in 1.4.0 they introduced a new scenario currency and BiS weapons that you could obtain by grinding scenarios, to boost the rate in wich people received this currency a 6v6 scenario was added as a special event with Eternal Citadel, it was fast and the 6man limit meant it would pop fast. This basicly created the 6v6 community as the grind for Royal Insiginas were pretty daunting.

I've seene people using the argument here on RoR that if 6 players are the limit for a group then ofc it should be ballanced around 6man groups. These people are forgetting that this game were designed with PVE being a big part of the game aswell. Instanced dungeons are completly scaled around the 6man groups. Thats were it comes from. PVP is moast likly being originally ballanced around 12-24 people as this was the size of scenarios and warbands. It's pretty evident as we see how much better classes wich get 0 picks in 6v6 groups become ALOT betteer once you scale up the battle.

The reason why there is so little support for 6v6 in this game is that it's not a format that the game were designed to support, just like 1v1 it's not ballanced among classes. And ballancing the game around it would make it unballanced in the formats it does support.

[Bozzax]

The thing is, that this game was never designed for 6v6.

The building blocks of wbs are parties of 6 players. Heals, debuffs, buffs are all ST, party (6) or aoe. I'd say it was very much designed for one or more parties of 6 that would face of one or more parties of 6.

Claiming 6v6, 6vX, solo or XvX wasn't part of design is stupid.

[sanii]

It's pretty evident as we see how much better classes wich get 0 picks in 6v6 groups become ALOT betteer once you scale up the battle.

The same way that it is pretty evident how classes which get ALOT of picks in 6v6 groups become worse once you scale up the battle. (Esp. in the dps slot)

Can you use WLs, WHs in your warbands ? Sure ! But they are worse at their role as they don't have nearly the impact the others have.

Can you use Maguses and Engeneers in 6v6? Sure ! But they are worste at their role as they don't have nearly the impact the others have.

And i'm not arguing that mythic balanced around any particular bracket at all i just think they took a more free approach to what they were balancing to , they saw fit to make certain classes better at smaller scale encounters and some others better at larger scale encounters. And from that ,one could freely point out how they regarded both styles as worthy of being balanced around.