Overarching balance changes

[Haojin]

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[Lileldys]

You can kill anyone through guard with SM + 2 MDPS or BO + 2MDPS. BlurringShock/SkullThumper + assist is your friend(with a healdebuff too).
I expect its the same with 1/3/2 where you trade the 2nd tank for extra damage. Anyone who gets focused by a 1/3/2 or a SM/BO MDPS train is forced out of the fight, having to kite or die.

[Jaycub]

You don't need the SM/BO to kill through guard, it's just if you are running IB/BG instead and the other team is running BO/SM, your pressure is a lot less and you'll lose trying to fight with that strat (melee train brawling).

The problem with this is it is basically forcing you to run SM/Knight BO/Ch. You can certainly win using IB/BG, but the method/strat is much harder to pull off, it's just 10x easier to smash face with the high pressure team.


Also ICD on blurring shock/skull thumper when?

[Hotrailz]

Guard is fine and has always been a feature of this game. The complaints come from the same players who get detaunted and still insist on 11111ing the same target. Its much easier to focus a new target before a tank switches guard and get to 30ft range (which is actually really small). I think a much bigger problem is classes like bw/sorcs running at close to 100% crit without any penalties.

[Stmichael1989]

Disclaimer, my claims are based around scenario sized fights. I'm not talking about this League of Legends style 6v6 that I've heard nothing about outside of this forum.

Ultimately, this game lacks solid fundamentals of game design. Even though they're not technically in the same genre, I like to refer back to Team Fortress 2 for reference on functional class design. Complain about x, y, or z in TF2, but there is nothing in the game that cannot be countered by one or two players that know what they're doing.

In TF2, everything has a natural enemy. Snipers and Engineers are afraid of Spies, who run away from Pyros, who are countered by Heavies, who in turn get rekt by Snipers and Engineers. It may seem like simple rock paper scissors balance, but it goes one step further. Things like mobility, terrain, and team composition help create enough wiggle room such that each class has something they're naturally weak against, but don't necessarily get hard countered by. Easy class switching also helps here, but this is an MMO, so short of giving everyone free level 40s that would be a tough obstacle to get around.

Translating that line of thought to WAR leads to some very murky definitions. What class is afraid of what? How do this classes mechanics help them attack their preferred target? How does one skillfully avoid X in order to attack Y? If you think about it, a lot of classes either lack a defining feature, or they have an extraordinarily strong one with no downside.

Just to get a little clarity from all the abstract, let's consider a really basic system. You have a tank, healer, melee DPS and ranged DPS. As far as damage goes, the melee and the tank deal physical. The ranged deals magic. The healer doesn't attack.

The tank has heavy armor, but low magic resist and is comparatively slow. His natural enemy is the Ranged DPS, who can kill the tank before he can reach him. The melee DPS is faster (charge, pounce, etc.) and can do lots of damage to the ranged DPS, thus killing him quickly. His natural enemy is the tank, who can slow him and won't take much damage from him thanks to his high armor. The healer has medium armor and resist, so he can take a few hits from either the ranged or melee DPS, but not a lot. He heals everyone in his group, so it's a priority to take him down. However, the tank can guard one person at a time, making it difficult to kill that person while all 4 are up.

In this situation, there is a clear strategy and purpose for each class. Right now, we don't have that. Both healers and tanks are extremely hard to kill even by classes that should supposedly have an advantage against them. On the other hand, without proper support, DPS classes have very little individual survivability. They get said survivability from tanks guarding them and healers pumping absurd amounts of healing into them. It's an imbalance between archetypes that strongly favors stacking tanks and healers because they have very little counter play.

What I propose would be far from a cure-all for the problems I've laid out, but it would be a big start. There needs to be 3 different hard caps for physical and magical resistance (and in the interest of simplifying everything, all 3 magic resists should be combined into one general one. It's stupid to have 3 of them.) Heavy armor focuses on stopping physical damage, so it caps at 75% physical resist just like it does now. However it doesn't protect much from magic, so wearing it hard caps you at 25% magic resist. Reverse those for light armor/robes. Medium meets in the middle, and caps at 50% for each. Combine that with some evening out of base wounds, and that would go a long way to establishing solid fundamentals in WAR.

[kweedko]

1) you guys are deliberately misinterpreting what Penril said. Noone is saying anything of the sort. 'Competitive players' means players who can play their class well. This is simply not up for debate.

2) Top RR doesn't equate to a competitive player, in my opinion. What does having a RR40 on a beta emulator server have to do with being skillfull? Or do you equate spamming oil for several hours a day as being a competent player?

3) Those are decent players (Svarz and Teefz in particular) but I'm pretty sure they run in premades themselves (I never see Svarz without a group of skilled players), so these people you seem to worship also run in premades.

I worship nothing but DDZEALOT, and what in sting "and theyr healbots guardbots" get you understand that i don't know that they are premaderunners they are players that i see constantly and you are not, only seen you once spaming from your am some nonsens in /offtopic, im talking about they playing the game, and you are playing forum. Why would sain Dev ever listen to those like you, but they listen.

[kweedko]

Disclaimer, my claims are based around scenario sized fights. I'm not talking about this League of Legends style 6v6 that I've heard nothing about outside of this forum.

Ultimately, this game lacks solid fundamentals of game design. Even though they're not technically in the same genre, I like to refer back to Team Fortress 2 for reference on functional class design. Complain about x, y, or z in TF2, but there is nothing in the game that cannot be countered by one or two players that know what they're doing.

In TF2, everything has a natural enemy. Snipers and Engineers are afraid of Spies, who run away from Pyros, who are countered by Heavies, who in turn get rekt by Snipers and Engineers. It may seem like simple rock paper scissors balance, but it goes one step further. Things like mobility, terrain, and team composition help create enough wiggle room such that each class has something they're naturally weak against, but don't necessarily get hard countered by. Easy class switching also helps here, but this is an MMO, so short of giving everyone free level 40s that would be a tough obstacle to get around.

Translating that line of thought to WAR leads to some very murky definitions. What class is afraid of what? How do this classes mechanics help them attack their preferred target? How does one skillfully avoid X in order to attack Y? If you think about it, a lot of classes either lack a defining feature, or they have an extraordinarily strong one with no downside.

Just to get a little clarity from all the abstract, let's consider a really basic system. You have a tank, healer, melee DPS and ranged DPS. As far as damage goes, the melee and the tank deal physical. The ranged deals magic. The healer doesn't attack.

The tank has heavy armor, but low magic resist and is comparatively slow. His natural enemy is the Ranged DPS, who can kill the tank before he can reach him. The melee DPS is faster (charge, pounce, etc.) and can do lots of damage to the ranged DPS, thus killing him quickly. His natural enemy is the tank, who can slow him and won't take much damage from him thanks to his high armor. The healer has medium armor and resist, so he can take a few hits from either the ranged or melee DPS, but not a lot. He heals everyone in his group, so it's a priority to take him down. However, the tank can guard one person at a time, making it difficult to kill that person while all 4 are up.

In this situation, there is a clear strategy and purpose for each class. Right now, we don't have that. Both healers and tanks are extremely hard to kill even by classes that should supposedly have an advantage against them. On the other hand, without proper support, DPS classes have very little individual survivability. They get said survivability from tanks guarding them and healers pumping absurd amounts of healing into them. It's an imbalance between archetypes that strongly favors stacking tanks and healers because they have very little counter play.

What I propose would be far from a cure-all for the problems I've laid out, but it would be a big start. There needs to be 3 different hard caps for physical and magical resistance (and in the interest of simplifying everything, all 3 magic resists should be combined into one general one. It's stupid to have 3 of them.) Heavy armor focuses on stopping physical damage, so it caps at 75% physical resist just like it does now. However it doesn't protect much from magic, so wearing it hard caps you at 25% magic resist. Reverse those for light armor/robes. Medium meets in the middle, and caps at 50% for each. Combine that with some evening out of base wounds, and that would go a long way to establishing solid fundamentals in WAR.

I posted this 20 pages ago and their excuse was "why is tank squishi vs fireball than cloth class QQ tanks not immortal enough whit their block, dist stacks,tonns health(even on low raks not like on off serv)"

Amount of def tanks and heals at this server gone completly nuts, never was like that on off there everybody roll a dd, here not and this is one of the reasons of waithammer runnhammer - cause people don't die.

[Penril]

The only argument you 2 have for that change is "because i think it would be cool". Zero evidence has been given as to why this would be a needed change or something good for the game.

[Valfaros]

Disclaimer, my claims are based around scenario sized fights. I'm not talking about this League of Legends style 6v6 that I've heard nothing about outside of this forum.

Ultimately, this game lacks solid fundamentals of game design. Even though they're not technically in the same genre, I like to refer back to Team Fortress 2 for reference on functional class design. Complain about x, y, or z in TF2, but there is nothing in the game that cannot be countered by one or two players that know what they're doing.

In TF2, everything has a natural enemy. Snipers and Engineers are afraid of Spies, who run away from Pyros, who are countered by Heavies, who in turn get rekt by Snipers and Engineers. It may seem like simple rock paper scissors balance, but it goes one step further. Things like mobility, terrain, and team composition help create enough wiggle room such that each class has something they're naturally weak against, but don't necessarily get hard countered by. Easy class switching also helps here, but this is an MMO, so short of giving everyone free level 40s that would be a tough obstacle to get around.

Translating that line of thought to WAR leads to some very murky definitions. What class is afraid of what? How do this classes mechanics help them attack their preferred target? How does one skillfully avoid X in order to attack Y? If you think about it, a lot of classes either lack a defining feature, or they have an extraordinarily strong one with no downside.

Just to get a little clarity from all the abstract, let's consider a really basic system. You have a tank, healer, melee DPS and ranged DPS. As far as damage goes, the melee and the tank deal physical. The ranged deals magic. The healer doesn't attack.

The tank has heavy armor, but low magic resist and is comparatively slow. His natural enemy is the Ranged DPS, who can kill the tank before he can reach him. The melee DPS is faster (charge, pounce, etc.) and can do lots of damage to the ranged DPS, thus killing him quickly. His natural enemy is the tank, who can slow him and won't take much damage from him thanks to his high armor. The healer has medium armor and resist, so he can take a few hits from either the ranged or melee DPS, but not a lot. He heals everyone in his group, so it's a priority to take him down. However, the tank can guard one person at a time, making it difficult to kill that person while all 4 are up.

In this situation, there is a clear strategy and purpose for each class. Right now, we don't have that. Both healers and tanks are extremely hard to kill even by classes that should supposedly have an advantage against them. On the other hand, without proper support, DPS classes have very little individual survivability. They get said survivability from tanks guarding them and healers pumping absurd amounts of healing into them. It's an imbalance between archetypes that strongly favors stacking tanks and healers because they have very little counter play.

What I propose would be far from a cure-all for the problems I've laid out, but it would be a big start. There needs to be 3 different hard caps for physical and magical resistance (and in the interest of simplifying everything, all 3 magic resists should be combined into one general one. It's stupid to have 3 of them.) Heavy armor focuses on stopping physical damage, so it caps at 75% physical resist just like it does now. However it doesn't protect much from magic, so wearing it hard caps you at 25% magic resist. Reverse those for light armor/robes. Medium meets in the middle, and caps at 50% for each. Combine that with some evening out of base wounds, and that would go a long way to establishing solid fundamentals in WAR.

I posted this 20 pages ago and their excuse was "why is tank squishi vs fireball than cloth class QQ tanks not immortal enough whit their block, dist stacks,tonns health(even on low raks not like on off serv)"

Amount of def tanks and heals at this server gone completly nuts, never was like that on off there everybody roll a dd, here not and this is one of the reasons of waithammer runnhammer - cause people don't die.

Yeah since fireball is indefencable I don't think this would be a good idea. Other than that yep Stm is kinda right if you are a dd with guard and heal you enter close to god mode if you don't have guard and instead a dd on your side you are the first meal for the enemy.

Edit: Having said that I don't think this is close to possible to do you would have to take a look at well everything. So BW which kill a tank within seconds shouldn't be a thing the list of changes for the classes would be endless.

[Luth]

Heavy armor focuses on stopping physical damage, so it caps at 75% physical resist just like it does now. However it doesn't protect much from magic, so wearing it hard caps you at 25% magic resist. Reverse those for light armor/robes. Medium meets in the middle, and caps at 50% for each.

Such fundamental game design decisions need to be decided before the game is developed.
This is pretty much the system from TESO. You can't just change that in a "completed" game without any major and high likely negative impact, e.g. WEs/WHs stacking resistances and become virtually immune against caster damage.

Furthermore this game is centered around massive RvR while scenarios/small scale PvP is an addition.
Changes like these would probably lead to some weird "caster-meta" in the open RvR, where it would be more effective to nuke each other from afar.