Overarching balance changes

[geezereur]

Because the guard change suggestion - as first posited by Haojun - was in regards to it being apparently too powerful in smallscale. Few pages back.

Thanks for the clarification, but seems to me as if equally skilled / geared / matched 6v6 basically waits on someone to make a mistake, with or without guard. Guard just prolonging the fight, which i get, the problem of guard is when it isn't equally skilled / geared / matched 6v6 of 12 v 12 matches.

Random pugs guarding in scenarios vs guard in premade is almost incomparable. The problem seems to arise when premades are thrown in with pugs. Be it pugs in ORvR or pugs in scenarios, the problem is the same. This is where guard becomes too strong. and shifts it to the first part of Penril's statement instead of the the last. """There is a difference between "that skill is too strong! nerf it!" and "that skill is very strong but does not need a nerf". Guard falls into the latter category."""

No, it doesn't. Because no one should be asking for nerfs/changes based on poor play/pugs.

Here, let me quote this rule (again):

5. No PUG arguments.

Balance is based around classes being played competently. Do not make any argument which involves disparity of skill, gear or specialization on either side. It is desirable when buffing classes or specs to avoid making them PUG killers, but a buff to an underpowered element of the game which renders it or the class more powerful against PUGs is not a problem as long as this element has valid counterplay.

That dident work so well in Swtor balance around the top 1%, that made healers Sorc and Sage op as hell and you would see like 4-6 of them in every Scenarios.

[Akalukz]

Are you seriously comparing current Guard to old bomb groups?

lol of course not. I am saying the "counters" to guard are as slim as the counters to the old bomb groups.

[Penril]

That dident work so well in Swtor balance around the top 1%, that made healers Sorc and Sage op as hell and you would see like 4-6 of them in every Scenarios.

Never played SWTOR but that sounds like the balance team there simply did a poor job.

Are you seriously comparing current Guard to old bomb groups?

lol of course not. I am saying the "counters" to guard are as slim as the counters to the old bomb groups.

Failing to counter Guard does not mean instant death, specially if you have a Guard of your own. Failing to counter the old bomb groups meant whole WBs were wiped unable to fight back. Big difference if you ask me.

[Toldavf]

SWTOR was known for its horrible pvp balance on release.

[TenTonHammer]

Sages and Sorc healers in SWTOR are not op because of that, its because their balance team nerfed general damage and burst across the board but left healers healing the same

[Tankbeardz]

But that is exactly what guard is... a pug killer. get rid of guard in certain areas where it's premade vs pug and suddenly it becomes a lot more competitive. I would think people that are overly skilled / coordinated would welcome more competition. It is absolutely 0 fun spawn camping scenarios, for both the campers and those being camped.

(added space for clarity)

Not to mention the direct counters are very slim definition of counter. Reminds me of when the Dev's on live said the answer to bomb groups was punts.... ummm that was fine till the got stomped.

1. If you are into Pugs killing Pugs, why have a group or a warband?
2. Blanket statements like these don't hold water:
a) Get rid of healers in certain areas where it's premade vs pug and suddenly it becomes a lot more competitive.
b) Get rid of DPS in certain areas where it's premade vs pug and suddenly it becomes a lot more competitive.
3. If you are talking about SCs only, you would make it even harder for Pugs. Just hear me out here...the type of person that makes an FOTM group will reroll in a heartbeat in order to have the strongest possible group set up for the game at the moment. They look to exploit any weakness on the other side. Not even having the ability to guard a pug would just make it easier for these groups to exploit.

[Akalukz]

I am not saying get rid of guard, I am suggesting to put in direct hard counters for it, make is have draw backs, and or more limitations. I believe small tweaks can bring this into line, no need to gut the skill. Personally I would lean towards the mitigation and avoidance of damage it grants.

Guard is one of the coolest skills in game, I just feel and I don't believe I am alone in thinking this, that it needs to be brought under serious consideration for change. Even in live there was talk of changing the way guard worked, before it all went to hell.

[Tankbeardz]

I am not saying get rid of guard, I am suggesting to put in direct hard counters for it, make is have draw backs, and or more limitations. I believe small tweaks can bring this into line, no need to gut the skill. Personally I would lean towards the mitigation and avoidance of damage it grants.

Guard is one of the coolest skills in game, I just feel and I don't believe I am alone in thinking this, that it needs to be brought under serious consideration for change. Even in live there was talk of changing the way guard worked, before it all went to hell.

I get that...but if you give everyone a counter for guard, you still do not solve the point that the coordinated group will stomp the pug, regardless.

[roadkillrobin]

I get that...but if you give everyone a counter for guard, you still do not solve the point that the coordinated group will stomp the pug, regardless.

It would actually make it worse then it allready is....

[roadkillrobin]

Because the guard change suggestion - as first posited by Haojun - was in regards to it being apparently too powerful in smallscale. Few pages back.

Thanks for the clarification, but seems to me as if equally skilled / geared / matched 6v6 basically waits on someone to make a mistake, with or without guard. Guard just prolonging the fight, which i get, the problem of guard is when it isn't equally skilled / geared / matched 6v6 of 12 v 12 matches.

Random pugs guarding in scenarios vs guard in premade is almost incomparable. The problem seems to arise when premades are thrown in with pugs. Be it pugs in ORvR or pugs in scenarios, the problem is the same. This is where guard becomes too strong. and shifts it to the first part of Penril's statement instead of the the last. """There is a difference between "that skill is too strong! nerf it!" and "that skill is very strong but does not need a nerf". Guard falls into the latter category."""

No, it doesn't. Because no one should be asking for nerfs/changes based on poor play/pugs.

Here, let me quote this rule (again):

5. No PUG arguments.

Balance is based around classes being played competently. Do not make any argument which involves disparity of skill, gear or specialization on either side. It is desirable when buffing classes or specs to avoid making them PUG killers, but a buff to an underpowered element of the game which renders it or the class more powerful against PUGs is not a problem as long as this element has valid counterplay.

Not sure what PuGing have to do with playing the class correctly there are tons of people who PuG who are masters of the class. What's gonna happen with something like KD bypassing guard for it's duration just gonna give premades more advantages over pugs as they can cordinate this via coms while pugs have to rely on reactions Seriusly if there arn't gona be any kinda changes with the mindset that PuG game play doesn't mather then just **** removee solo ques from the game, scenario PuG's stand for probobly 75% of the scenario population and yet their opintions should be completly ignored so they can give premades shorter que times and be nothing but epeen and renown feeders? Thats a good way to kill a game.