Overarching balance changes

[Tankbeardz]

You are completely missing the point. I hate to digress..to "this is a L2P issue"...but this is an issue of group coordination and skill that a nerf bat won't fix -- no matter how many times you swing it.

What?

When did I ever dismiss your argument by stating that I am right and you are ignorant?

You are replying this to a post with a quote where you are doing it, are you serious? I will copy it again for good measure:

So you are dismissing group play in general in favor of nerfs/buffs to suit your particular needs. Gotcha.

If you are going to feign ignorance, at least delete the quote.

This is how a debate works. Your turn.

This may be the last example of how a debate works, you are just repeating the same thing while i refute it and you cover your ears. Hell, you went and said it again to Jaycub like in the next post like nothing was ever said to you.

You also have snare, KD, Stagger, Champs Challenge...to name a few.

None of this even works if the target just stands near the Tank, which he should be doing anyway.

You have to get off this idea that attacking a guarded target is wrong. That idea only works if you play against pugs. And you left IB punt off your list too, no idea why really. At the highest level of 6v6 most kills are made thru guard, because the tanks are good at swapping guard and the debuffing and focusfire is really strong.

He is not saying is wrong, he is saying that the only counter to a guard is either punt or burst.

How many times more have we to repeat it?

Since you fail to counter my arguments with anything other than "I'm right you're wrong"...I am done replying. Cheers.

[Vigfuss]

1. Focus CC / Snare 1 Tank then kill his guarded target - move to healers when they are focused on rez / re-heal and the dead target has a debuff. Sometimes you have to focus the strongest DPS sometimes you have to focus the healer
2. Constantly swap to the weakest target and move the battle to the back lines
3. Save morales then coordinate CC and burst them down (Champ Challenge, ID, etc.)
4. If the 2h is squishy enough focus him then his guarded target
5. And on and on..fights are dynamic...not static

This constantly changes throughout the battle depending on how the other group reacts, of course...

Do you realize that you basically are saying "Well you can swap targets, you could also swap targets or well, you could burst them while using cc"

lol Bloodi. If you suggest something you have to actually listen to what someone else has to say about it.

[Jaycub]

You also have snare, KD, Stagger, Champs Challenge...to name a few.

None of those things remove or diminish the effect of gaurd, none of them are a hard counter.

You have to get off this idea that attacking a guarded target is wrong. That idea only works if you play against pugs. And you left IB punt off your list too, no idea why really. At the highest level of 6v6 most kills are made thru guard, because the tanks are good at swapping guard and the debuffing and focusfire is really strong.

I really like how you omit my opening statement from my post in your quote of me.

Spoiler:

The arguement here isn't that you can't kill someone with guard, but rather guard itself is too strong for the amount of counterplay it has.

The only thing that removes guard from a target is moving the tank out of the 30ft range it has, and the only thing you can do to that end is a super punt which only Knight/Chosen/BG have.

In a 6v6 situation where the only thing you are presented with is 2 guarded MDPS and 2 tanks, there isn't exactly a squishy target to swap too, going into the back lines takes time and is easily seen what your purpose is, guard will be swapped. healers will kite, etc...

Guards effectiveness is much more pronounced in say 6v6 than it is in ORvR warband vs Warband, or say your average mish mash group of pugs in a battle for praag or temple of isha.

Again back to the point that changes to gaurd will have different effects on certain areas in the game.

[Tankbeardz]

You also have snare, KD, Stagger, Champs Challenge...to name a few.

None of those things remove or diminish the effect of gaurd, none of them are a hard counter.

You have to get off this idea that attacking a guarded target is wrong. That idea only works if you play against pugs. And you left IB punt off your list too, no idea why really. At the highest level of 6v6 most kills are made thru guard, because the tanks are good at swapping guard and the debuffing and focusfire is really strong.

I really like how you omit my opening statement from my post in your quote of me.

Spoiler:

The arguement here isn't that you can't kill someone with guard, but rather guard itself is too strong for the amount of counterplay it has.

The only thing that removes guard from a target is moving the tank out of the 30ft range it has, and the only thing you can do to that end is a super punt which only Knight/Chosen/BG have.

In a 6v6 situation where the only thing you are presented with is 2 guarded MDPS and 2 tanks, there isn't exactly a squishy target to swap too, going into the back lines takes time and is easily seen what your purpose is, guard will be swapped. healers will kite, etc...

Guards effectiveness is much more pronounced in say 6v6 than it is in ORvR warband vs Warband, or say your average mish mash group of pugs in a battle for praag or temple of isha.

Again back to the point that changes to gaurd will have different effects on certain areas in the game.

No, but they allow you to move the battle elsewhere, allowing the DPS to focus another target.

[Vigfuss]

You also have snare, KD, Stagger, Champs Challenge...to name a few.

None of those things remove or diminish the effect of gaurd, none of them are a hard counter.

You have to get off this idea that attacking a guarded target is wrong. That idea only works if you play against pugs. And you left IB punt off your list too, no idea why really. At the highest level of 6v6 most kills are made thru guard, because the tanks are good at swapping guard and the debuffing and focusfire is really strong.

I really like how you omit my opening statement from my post in your quote of me.

Spoiler:

The arguement here isn't that you can't kill someone with guard, but rather guard itself is too strong for the amount of counterplay it has.

The only thing that removes guard from a target is moving the tank out of the 30ft range it has, and the only thing you can do to that end is a super punt which only Knight/Chosen/BG have.

In a 6v6 situation where the only thing you are presented with is 2 guarded MDPS and 2 tanks, there isn't exactly a squishy target to swap too, going into the back lines takes time and is easily seen what your purpose is, guard will be swapped. healers will kite, etc...

Guards effectiveness is much more pronounced in say 6v6 than it is in ORvR warband vs Warband, or say your average mish mash group of pugs in a battle for praag or temple of isha.

Again back to the point that changes to gaurd will have different effects on certain areas in the game.

oops lol sorry about that. My point is that you put more emphasis on that than what is really necessary.

[Jaycub]

No, but they allow you to move the battle elsewhere, allowing the DPS to focus another target.

You are gonna have to come up with some kind of example, i don't see how moving the battle elsewhere is going to stop the tanks from guarding people unless we are talking pugs or groups without voice comms where DPS would overextend into as situation where they tanks weren't able to keep up with them due to a snare/kd/stagger. But voice comms stops that from ever happening, or just a good battle field awareness.

[Bozzax]

Guard isn't to strong no evidence has been provided for this not a single thing.

There is actually hard facts that contradicts the claim that guard is to strong.

The best teams and I mean the ones saying guard is fine score kills on each other 6v6 in CW by countering guard. Vs pugs we don't even use punt just like vigfuss tries to tell you.

Nerfing guard could be a question if we had a lot of 0 kills CWs but we don't.

[Tankbeardz]

No, but they allow you to move the battle elsewhere, allowing the DPS to focus another target.

You are gonna have to come up with some kind of example, i don't see how moving the battle elsewhere is going to stop the tanks from guarding people unless we are talking pugs or groups without voice comms where DPS would overextend into as situation where they tanks weren't able to keep up with them due to a snare/kd/stagger. But voice comms stops that from ever happening, or just a good battle field awareness.

Good 6v6 healers are usually good kiters that are spread way out, far away from the battle.

If you lock 1 tank down that means the other tank is now responsible for 2 healers and 1 dps. He can't keep all 3 alive.
If you can cc the dps that was guarded by that tank (snare and punt) you will kill him or force him to run back to his guard and negating a big chunk of dps while making the remaining tank responsible for keeping 2 dps and 2 healers alive. The rest really depends on the reaction of the other group.....most will sprint + stam pot to catch up to a target that is far away.

This is only 1 scenario that plays out in 6v6, of course, and 2 good groups can go on for 30 minutes+, easily. Eventually, someone will fall.

[Akalukz]

If guard isn't so strong, then why are some many people opposed to making changes to it.

[peterthepan3]

If guard isn't so strong, then why are some many people opposed to making changes to it.

I am yet to see an overwhelming majority of the relevant parties, i.e. those who do smallscale, say that guard is OP.