Overarching balance changes

[Penril]

Spoiler:

I would be more in favor of a skill being added, to certain classes, that removes guard, than to change the way CC works for just tanks. If you change CC for a tank, you have to change CC for everyone else too IMO.

Possible new magus/engi skill?!

50ap
5 seconds enemy has a guard effect removed
30sec cd

I agree with Beardz and Peter. If there's gonna be a change to Guard, a Guard-debuff on certain classes would be my choice. 2H tanks preferably.

We have already had this discussion before with several interesting suggestions.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5615
https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/vie ... 15&t=11754

[Tankbeardz]

There are lots of other ways to counter guard....it all depends on the coordination of the group.

List them.

1. Focus CC / Snare 1 Tank then kill his guarded target - move to healers when they are focused on rez / re-heal and the dead target has a debuff. Sometimes you have to focus the strongest DPS sometimes you have to focus the healer
2. Constantly swap to the weakest target and move the battle to the back lines
3. Save morales then coordinate CC and burst them down (Champ Challenge, ID, etc.)
4. If the 2h is squishy enough focus him then his guarded target
5. And on and on..fights are dynamic...not static

This constantly changes throughout the battle depending on how the other group reacts, of course...

[bloodi]

1. Focus CC / Snare 1 Tank then kill his guarded target - move to healers when they are focused on rez / re-heal and the dead target has a debuff. Sometimes you have to focus the strongest DPS sometimes you have to focus the healer
2. Constantly swap to the weakest target and move the battle to the back lines
3. Save morales then coordinate CC and burst them down (Champ Challenge, ID, etc.)
4. If the 2h is squishy enough focus him then his guarded target
5. And on and on..fights are dynamic...not static

This constantly changes throughout the battle depending on how the other group reacts, of course...

Do you realize that you basically are saying "Well you can swap targets, you could also swap targets or well, you could burst them while using cc"

This is not lots of ways. This is why we are talking about the change.

Edit: You even edited 2 more and its just burst again and another claim of there being "lots more" without actually saying any.

I agree with Beardz and Peter. If there's gonna be a change to Guard, a Guard-debuff on certain classes would be my choice. 2H tanks preferably.

We have already had this discussion before with several interesting suggestions.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5615
https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/vie ... 15&t=11754

Yeah and as Azarael said, it got shut down for the same reasons people are shutting down the suggestions here, because if anything changes the world will end and we dont need change at all.

People is always clamoring for balance changes and then shutting down any new change.

[Tankbeardz]

1. Focus CC / Snare 1 Tank then kill his guarded target - move to healers when they are focused on rez / re-heal and the dead target has a debuff. Sometimes you have to focus the strongest DPS sometimes you have to focus the healer
2. Constantly swap to the weakest target and move the battle to the back lines
3. Save morales then coordinate CC and burst them down (Champ Challenge, ID, etc.)

This constantly changes throughout the battle depending on how the other group reacts, of course...

Do you realize that you basically are saying "Well you can swap targets, you could also swap targets or well, you could burst them while using cc"

This is not lots of ways. This is why we are talking about the change.

I agree with Beardz and Peter. If there's gonna be a change to Guard, a Guard-debuff on certain classes would be my choice. 2H tanks preferably.

We have already had this discussion before with several interesting suggestions.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5615
https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/vie ... 15&t=11754

Yeah and as Azarael said, it got shut down for the same reasons people are shutting down the suggestions here, because if anything changes the world will end and we dont need change at all.

People is always clamoring for balance changes and then shutting down any new change.

So you are dismissing group play in general in favor of nerfs/buffs to suit your particular needs. Gotcha.

As I stated before...I believe that the answer lies in class synergy as opposed to nerfs/buffs....we can agree to disagree.

[bloodi]

So you are dismissing group play in general in favor of nerfs/buffs to suit your particular needs. Gotcha.

What i am dismissing is your argument that there is "lots of ways" and your attempt at pretending anyone who argues against your position does it from ignorance.

You didnt list lost of ways, you just said you could swap targets or burst them down through cc. One of them relies on the enemy not being coordianted and the other its just what we are suggesting, the guard should be weaker if cc comes into the field.

[Jaycub]

There are lots of other ways to counter guard....it all depends on the coordination of the group.

List them.

1. Focus CC / Snare 1 Tank then kill his guarded target - move to healers when they are focused on rez / re-heal and the dead target has a debuff. Sometimes you have to focus the strongest DPS sometimes you have to focus the healer
2. Constantly swap to the weakest target and move the battle to the back lines
3. Save morales then coordinate CC and burst them down (Champ Challenge, ID, etc.)
4. If the 2h is squishy enough focus him then his guarded target
5. And on and on..fights are dynamic...not static

This constantly changes throughout the battle depending on how the other group reacts, of course...

The arguement here isn't that you can't kill someone with guard, but rather guard itself is too strong for the amount of counterplay it has.

The only thing that removes guard from a target is moving the tank out of the 30ft range it has, and the only thing you can do to that end is a super punt which only Knight/Chosen/BG have.

In a 6v6 situation where the only thing you are presented with is 2 guarded MDPS and 2 tanks, there isn't exactly a squishy target to swap too, going into the back lines takes time and is easily seen what your purpose is, guard will be swapped. healers will kite, etc...

Guards effectiveness is much more pronounced in say 6v6 than it is in ORvR warband vs Warband, or say your average mish mash group of pugs in a battle for praag or temple of isha.

Again back to the point that changes to gaurd will have different effects on certain areas in the game.

[Tankbeardz]

So you are dismissing group play in general in favor of nerfs/buffs to suit your particular needs. Gotcha.

What i am dismissing is your argument that there is "lots of ways" and your attempt at pretending anyone who argues against your position does it from ignorance.

You didnt list lost of ways, you just said you could swap targets or burst them down through cc. One of them relies on the enemy not being coordianted and the other its just what we are suggesting, the guard should be weaker if cc comes into the field.

You are completely missing the point. I hate to digress..to "this is a L2P issue"...but this is an issue of group coordination and skill that a nerf bat won't fix -- no matter how many times you swing it.

When did I ever dismiss your argument by stating that I am right and you are ignorant?

I simply listed my disagreement along with suggestions:
1. I'd rather see an ability or morale to remove guard rather than a complete change to the mechanic. If you change the way CC works for tanks..you best change the way it works for everyone else.
2. I think the balance lies in class synergy to promote other types of group compositions

This is how a debate works. Your turn.

[Tankbeardz]

The only thing that removes guard from a target is moving the tank out of the 30ft range it has, and the only thing you can do to that end is a super punt which only Knight/Chosen/BG have.

In a 6v6 situation where the only thing you are presented with is 2 guarded MDPS and 2 tanks, there isn't exactly a squishy target to swap too, going into the back lines takes time and is easily seen what your purpose is, guard will be swapped. healers will kite, etc...

Guards effectiveness is much more pronounced in say 6v6 than it is in ORvR warband vs Warband, or say your average mish mash group of pugs in a battle for praag or temple of isha.

Again back to the point that changes to gaurd will have different effects on certain areas in the game.

You also have snare, KD, Stagger, Champs Challenge...to name a few.

[Vigfuss]

In a 6v6 situation where the only thing you are presented with is 2 guarded MDPS and 2 tanks, there isn't exactly a squishy target to swap too, going into the back lines takes time and is easily seen what your purpose is, guard will be swapped. healers will kite, etc...

Guards effectiveness is much more pronounced in say 6v6 than it is in ORvR warband vs Warband, or say your average mish mash group of pugs in a battle for praag or temple of isha.

Again back to the point that changes to gaurd will have different effects on certain areas in the game.

You have to get off this idea that attacking a guarded target is wrong. That idea only works if you play against pugs. And you left IB punt off your list too, no idea why really. At the highest level of 6v6 most kills are made thru guard, because the tanks are good at swapping guard and the debuffing and focusfire is really strong.

[bloodi]

You are completely missing the point. I hate to digress..to "this is a L2P issue"...but this is an issue of group coordination and skill that a nerf bat won't fix -- no matter how many times you swing it.

What?

When did I ever dismiss your argument by stating that I am right and you are ignorant?

You are replying this to a post with a quote where you are doing it, are you serious? I will copy it again for good measure:

So you are dismissing group play in general in favor of nerfs/buffs to suit your particular needs. Gotcha.

If you are going to feign ignorance, at least delete the quote.

This is how a debate works. Your turn.

This may be the last example of how a debate works, you are just repeating the same thing while i refute it and you cover your ears. Hell, you went and said it again to Jaycub like in the next post like nothing was ever said to you.

You also have snare, KD, Stagger, Champs Challenge...to name a few.

None of this even works if the target just stands near the Tank, which he should be doing anyway.

You have to get off this idea that attacking a guarded target is wrong. That idea only works if you play against pugs. And you left IB punt off your list too, no idea why really. At the highest level of 6v6 most kills are made thru guard, because the tanks are good at swapping guard and the debuffing and focusfire is really strong.

He is not saying is wrong, he is saying that the only counter to a guard is either punt or burst.

How many times more have we to repeat it?