Destro morale pump - SM/BO dominance

[Gachimuchi]

Use a Archmage and spam Boon with tactic and order tanks can have it to.

>Just gimp your lineup and spam heals on a tank thats already at full hp :^)


Click here to watch on YouTube

@Shadowgurke
There's that strawman again. 100% uptime on 20% crit increase is not comparable to DEATH IMMUNITY for 20s.

[Bozzax]

KOTBS is the best tank in game why do we even have this conversation?

[bloodi]

KOTBS is the best tank in game why do we even have this conversation?

Watch out, the authority arrived.

[Shadowgurke]

@Shadowgurke
There's that strawman again. 100% uptime on 20% crit increase is not comparable to DEATH IMMUNITY for 20s.

No offense but I don't think you know what strawman means. Aside from that you are comparing one advantage of one order tank vs a moral push from 2 destro tanks. Don't forget that Order has the same M4, just less uptime.
If you want to make a direct comparison, how about that:

20% crit increase + 15% heal increase + AoE snare + better M3 vs. Moral push
Kotbs vs Chosen

[bloodi]

20% crit increase + 15% heal increase + AoE snare + better M3 vs. Moral push
Kotbs vs Chosen

This is anything but direct, you just claimed people are comparing half assedly and you put this?

The only thing chosen has is morale push? Really?

20% crit increase + 10% heal crits + 15% heal increase + AoE snare + better M3 vs. Moral push

To be precise

Ah yes, the mythical "i got everything" build http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=kot ... 8:;0:0:0:0:

[Bozzax]

20% crit increase + 10% heal crits + 15% heal increase + AoE snare + better M3 vs. Moral push

To be precise

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

If destro decides to use m4 on both tanks twice per minute they will simply be outpressured in the other 40s, just by order tanks being able to moral snare/root, armordebuff or dmg. (kobs m3 op!, sm m2 makes him unkickable)
(One trick pony ChCh and demolishing strike works too)
Dok m2 might help to relief some pressure but order can do fine with m1 or m2 on rp too.
Also dont forget that chosen and bo lose a tactic for that and have to wear snb -> less dmg-> less pressure 67% of the time.
Also keep in mind that without ChCh disengaging is easy for the order dps.

Basically the whole moral situation cant be compared on paper, the influencing factors, like order having more crit, more heal (rp/kobs) and better synergies, are too complex.
Of course I get that the whole thing is easier to pull off for destro since it is basically running by itself yet I dont see why a potential l2p issue should influence realm balance.

[Gachimuchi]

No offense but I don't think you know what strawman means. Aside from that you are comparing one advantage of one order tank vs a moral push from 2 destro tanks. Don't forget that Order has the same M4, just less uptime.
If you want to make a direct comparison, how about that:

20% crit increase + 15% heal increase + AoE snare + better M3 vs. Moral push
Kotbs vs Chosen

Also, what is the counterplay to 20% permacrit? There does not need to be a counter to every ability in the game.

]

Strawman - misrepresenting an argument to make it easier to attack. I never said that there needs to be a counter for everything in the game.

There isn't a counterplay for 20% crit from KoTBs because while it may be up all the time, it doesn't have the same power that a defensive tank M3/M4 has. I could even argue that since Destru have crit hit % increasing tactics on most of their DPS they don't need a equivalent of Knight's crit chance anyway. This is beside the point.

[Jaycub]

If destro decides to use m4 on both tanks twice per minute they will simply be outpressured in the other 40s, just by order tanks being able to moral snare/root, armordebuff or dmg. (kobs m3 op!, sm m2 makes him unkickable)
(One trick pony ChCh and demolishing strike works too)
Dok m2 might help to relief some pressure but order can do fine with m1 or m2 on rp too.
Also dont forget that chosen and bo lose a tactic for that and have to wear snb -> less dmg-> less pressure 67% of the time.
Also keep in mind that without ChCh disengaging is easy for the order dps.

Basically the whole moral situation cant be compared on paper, the influencing factors, like order having more crit, more heal (rp/kobs) and better synergies, are too complex.
Of course I get that the whole thing is easier to pull off for destro since it is basically running by itself yet I dont see why a potential l2p issue should influence realm balance.

I understand the points made, but on the topic of balance IB/BG are just a joke now. I don't see any benefits at all to running either of those tanks in 6 man comps over Ch-BO / Knight-SM. We haven't been able to run any 6v6 with a SM and that's probably why we have trouble against Ch-BO groups since the BO is putting out insane damage for a tank that our IB just can't compete with. It's basically like having 3 DPS. And it's not like the SM/BO give up any group utility, in fact they probably have more than IB/BG.

I just feel like you absolutely have to answer the BO with a SM to be able to match their pressure, and for obvious reasons KotBS is mandatory as well, leaving IB totally in the dust.

[Shadowgurke]

Strawman - misrepresenting an argument to make it easier to attack. I never said that there needs to be a counter for everything in the game.

Straw manning means I would bring out something that you never said. You clearly said that there is no counter to M4, to which I said that there isn't a counter to 20% crit either. My argument here is that you are under the impression that there needs to be a counter to M4 and I am saying there doesn't need to be a counter. You can counter morale buildup if you want.

There isn't a counterplay for 20% crit from KoTBs because while it may be up all the time, it doesn't have the same power that a defensive tank M3/M4 has.

And the M4 isn't up all the time, hence it doesn't need a counter. It's 10 seconds. If you want something to complain about, complain about Spiked Carapace