Destro morale pump - SM/BO dominance

[Penril]

I wouldn't call SF sht; while it is true that ID is the g2g M4, a succesful use of SF means your enemies won't be using ID (or Confusing Movements, if you also hit their mDPS, which you probably will if they are close to their tanks). So i guess it's a gamble. It is sht depending on the situation (if you are solo tanking, who you are fighting, or depending on who is the 2nd tank in your group) just like most "sht" skills are.

I know OP was asking for a hard-counter to the Destro melee 6-man meta morale boosts that let them have ID pretty fast, I assume focusing on the Order melee 6-man meta. I have to admit i don't know how to counter it on the Order melee 6-man meta (any suggestion you have, i'm sure will be really appreciated in this thread). But a BB AM boosting morale on a SF KoTBS can definitely work (in the hands of skilled players). Yes: not against the top-top dogs. But still worth trying out imho, specially if you are fighting a premade you have fought before and know from past experience that the fight can last for a while.

In this case you could even take advantage of the morale-boosting AM and go with a Excommunicate WH (at rr40 they also have Exit Wounds, inc-heal debuff and +crit damage tactic, which is not a bad spec). Yes, i know both are M4s and therefore this is pretty hard to pull off. But if both get to M4 and time it correctly, they can make sure their enemies won't have ID/Confusing Movements ready and then go for an easy kill. Is this hard/rare? It definitely is. But i believe it is fair since, as i mentioned, if you pull it off you get a guaranteed kill. And I admit i can't think of any hard-counters to DfV/YSMBD (also, i don't like "deal with it" like someone mentioned).

You are 100% correct that this is pointless in a 1 3 2 though since the KotBS will be using his M3 constantly (i believe you meant No Escape instead of Slice Through). And being the only tank, he will probably go for a tri-spec and use ID anyway.

[Ktana]

I could be missing some, but it becomes pretty obvious destro as a whole has much better morale gain and burn mechanics.

Yes. Is that an issue or would you prefer to play chess?

It is an issue when one side can get M4 in 47seconds while other side will get it only after 6mins. I mean it is an issue when it touches core super morales (which any tank have, mirrored like in chess).

[Shadowgurke]

It is an issue when one side can get M4 in 47seconds while other side will get it only after 6mins. I mean it is an issue when it touches core super morales (which any tank have, mirrored like in chess).

you look at the one thing destro tanks are better at and call it an issue. M4 pump is one part of the kit that makes a tank good but it's certainly not all there is to it

[Vigfuss]

Order has better passive support from group buffs.

Destro has better reactive defense from morales.

I'm not really sure that one is better than the other, but Order has more classes represented in the meta partly because of this.

[Gachimuchi]

you look at the one thing destro tanks are better at and call it an issue. M4 pump is one part of the kit that makes a tank good but it's certainly not all there is to it

Straw-manning aside... the fact they can have a M3/M4 in a short period of time is what pushes it over the top. Morales are morales for a reason, and they're very strong. 50% or 75% incoming damage reduction means no matter how much damage the order group is dumping on you when you have it up you are not doing to die unless both your healers spontaneously fell asleep/dropped dead/whatever for the duration.

There is no counterplay, you just hope you can wipe the group before the tanks get their "i win" buttons with your superior utility from tanks that begins to pale in comparison very quickly when faced with Destru morales up all the time.

I suppose you could also all run away and wait for their morale to fade and then go back in.

[Ktana]

you look at the one thing destro tanks are better at and call it an issue. M4 pump is one part of the kit that makes a tank good but it's certainly not all there is to it

No, im looking at the whole picture and M4(basically invulnerability for the whole group for 10 secs) spam every 60secs or less (cause of 2 tanks) making destro tanks superior to order in my opinion.

[Shadowgurke]

the fact they can have a M3/M4 in a short period of time is what pushes it over the top. Morales are morales for a reason, and they're very strong. 50% or 75% incoming damage reduction means no matter how much damage the order group is dumping on you when you have it up you are not doing to die unless both your healers spontaneously fell asleep/dropped dead/whatever for the duration.

There is no counterplay, you just hope you can wipe the group before the tanks get their "i win" buttons with your superior utility from tanks that begins to pale in comparison very quickly when faced with Destru morales up all the time.

I suppose you could also all run away and wait for their morale to fade and then go back in.

Nobody is arguing that the effect is strong. That does not mean that you can't deal with it. It's not an "I win" button, it's a "I don't lose button". For 10 seconds. Then you go back to dpsing them. Yes running out is an option and a perfectly viable tactic.

Also, what is the counterplay to 20% permacrit? There does not need to be a counter to every ability in the game.

No, im looking at the whole picture and M4(basically invulnerability for the whole group for 10 secs) spam every 60secs or less (cause of 2 tanks) making destro tanks superior to order in my opinion.

Want me to list all the things order tanks do better? I understand the frustration since M4 is more tangiable than passive buffs but that does not make M4 stronger

[roadkillrobin]

Use a Archmage and spam Boon with tactic and order tanks can have it to.

[Ktana]

Want me to list all the things order tanks do better? I understand the frustration since M4 is more tangiable than passive buffs but that does not make M4 stronger

All i want to say is that accessability of buttons "i win", "I don't lose", "my group is invulnerable" should be treated aside from other tactics/abilities because "Morales are morales for a reason" as Gachimuchi just said.

[Shadowgurke]

All i want to say is that accessability of buttons "i win", "I don't lose", "my group is invulnerable" should be treated aside from other tactics/abilities because "Morales are morales for a reason" as Gachimuchi just said.

And why? Because you think so? BO and Chosen are good because of the Morale push. Take it away and you severely nerfed both viable Destro tanks. If you want to buff morals and tactics separately then this is not the place to start