2H and s/b tanks - defence/dps comparison

[Agiond]

Holy crap that's a lot to read in only one night.

First of all, nice maths. It's good to see someone comming with numbers to show that 2H tanks are viable.
Just as a side note: I don't know if it has changed in RoR, but on live the "main" stat for dps tanks wasn't strength, it was weapon skill (side-effect: gives parry). Same on dps WP/DoK. The reasoning was simple: you'll be hardly able to get to the squishys, so better prepare to be able to fight other tanks or mdps (which used to get a lot of armor), and here Weapon Skill was the most effective stat.
That was one of the reasons to go s/b, because you could get an ofensive stat that was more effective that raw strength while giving some parry.

[Bozzax]

This shows a defensive 2h build is "near" an offensive SnB tank in avoidance and damage. Both these setups are offensive tanks.

So before you conclude anything you need to figure out if an offensive tank is viable or not and in what context.

Secondly "tanks" loose HTL when going 2h so looking at what abilities you gain from 2h clearly is meaningful if you decide to be an offensive tank (as they are close in avoidance and damage).

[gungnir08]

It's interesting to see some numbers here. Thanks for making this post, Annaise.

If you don't mind my asking, where do your formulas come from? Were your formulas experimentally derived, or are you privy to the actual formulas used in the game? I'm a bit of a math geek, so I'd love the opportunity to mess around with some actual numbers, myself.

[footpatrol2]

So I didn't read all of this. I skimmed it... I'll read it later. Kinda want to say there is a thang called assisting damage since this is a talk on 2hnder tanks/SnB tanks.

If you've played in high end 6 man premades vs other high end premades you'll notice its balls tough to kill the opposition/sometimes impossible to wipe each other. Thats when assisting damage helps. Your healers and tanks don't just fill their roles they are also suppose to in my opinion provide assisting damage when needed. Your DD's+tank assisting damage will get the target super close to death but can't push it over. Thats when your healers blow a GCD to kill the target. You basically just need a sliver of damage to kill the target. This really just exists at the 6 man level though also assuming that players are slotting defensive morales.

Most players never played at this level so you'll get countering arguments against it.

At the 12 man meta level (even fewer players have played this) this all disappears with assist trains. But assist trains at the 12 man level weren't amazing. Rez sickness in RoR is a lot more detrimental then it was in live. Putting a 6 man in a rez cycle is a oh crap/potential wipe moment. Putting a 12 man in a rez cycle on live sucked but a 12 man is a lot more robust and able to handle a rez cycle more on live. I'm unsure a 12 man could handle a rez cycle now with the current ways rez sickness is.

Sorry if this was semi derailing.

[Annaise16]

It's interesting to see some numbers here. Thanks for making this post, Annaise.

If you don't mind my asking, where do your formulas come from? Were your formulas experimentally derived, or are you privy to the actual formulas used in the game? I'm a bit of a math geek, so I'd love the opportunity to mess around with some actual numbers, myself.

They are the formulas that Bruglir derived during the early years of AOR. I tested the block and Parry rate formulas myself during AOR. I used the stats from 10k+ hits during my tests and the formulas checked out (with the percentage modifiers due to dual-wield and 2H).

I've never tested the Dodge and Disrupt formulas but they are consistent with the values that were on the paper doll for Dodge and Disrupt against the mobs default stats (for AOR). (The paper doll values aren't correct for bolstered toons in ROR.) So I don't doubt they are correct.

I've been told and read on the develop section of the forums that they are the formulas used in developing AOR. I've done a brief check of the Block formula against a couple hundred hits and seen that it's the same. So I don't doubt the others are also the same.

[Annaise16]

This shows a defensive 2h build is "near" an offensive SnB tank in avoidance and damage. Both these setups are offensive tanks.

So before you conclude anything you need to figure out if an offensive tank is viable or not and in what context.

Secondly "tanks" loose HTL when going 2h so looking at what abilities you gain from 2h clearly is meaningful if you decide to be an offensive tank (as they are close in avoidance and damage).

They aren't really offensive tanks. They are balanced. They could go either way from here.

If they slotted all toughness, wounds, and armor talismans, used armor and toughness pots, and specced into defensive abilities and tactics in their mastery paths, there would be no doubt that they are strongly defensive tanks with a bit of dps.

Or they could go the other way and spec offensively. Or they could keep speccing for a balance of dps and defence. All of the alternatives are possible except complete turtle and outright dps.

[Bozzax]

Subjective but I would never label any SnB tank with 34/40 renown points in strength balanced

(2h:er for me is always an offensive tank or a role player)

[labotimy]

Its has never been nor ever will be about dmg with tanks, that is what we have real DD's for, tanks are their for utlity, CC, apply some pressure and to negate damage s that DD's can deal damage

A such there is no need to waste 34 pts on STR

Choosing a shield in every case bar IB and SM makes the tank better because they can provide more utility they they otherwise could in their 2H counter part, the first and formost being Hold The Line!, which benefits not only them but their whole party, long with access to a wide varierty of block unique abilites and tactics such as Dirty Tricks, spiteful slam, Destind for victory, and You sez me block dat?.

Furthermore are you factoring in many class unique tactics and attributes that increase defensive stats based on a shield? such as mixed defenses, good wif shield, gilded shield, shield mastery etc?

At the end of the day 2H tanks have parry for VS melee and dodge and disrupt SnB gets both of those and a 3 liar of defense from everything with block increasing their surviveablity whch is what is most important to tanks, the dmg increase from 2H weapons is in the gand scheme of things nothing to get excited over

I was gonna read through this thread a bit, but this is the only response that matters. Right on the money about every point. Honestly 2handed non supporting tanks are a waste of space, and even if they do support they are still a waste of space cause well HTL is OP. If you don't guard and HTL a real DPS, your just taking up a spot a real player could be using to contribute.

Despite popular belief by garbo pubs, 2/3 archetypes in this game are supposed to do as little damage as possible, and instead support those that do.

[Shadowgurke]

1) You already know that dps counts for more than overall damage. So I don't know why you are making this argument.

2) This is entirely situational. And the difference between Guard damage taken in the two builds isn't very large.

3) You might have noticed that I used only 800 for the attacker's main stat when making the calculations. As shield block ratings increase, so does the attacker's strength/int/bal. By the time that shields have 420 block Rating, the attacker's stats will be at the soft cap for str/int/bal.

The base block and parry rates don't really change much as new gear becomes available if attackers and defenders are at the same gear/renown rank. The only difference comes when the fight is between toons of different gear/rr.

4) I'm not really sure what you are saying here. All tanks' damage scales with strength, and that was the only comparison I made.

1) You main job with most tanks is to prepare the targets. Keep them snared. Keep debuffs up. When you have to retreat as a tank because you are taking too much damage than you are hurting your team. Which is why I value staying power over burst dps. This is different for mdps.

2) This is not situational. In any given fight your guarded target will get hit far more often and take more damage then you do. If you cannot mitigate the majority of that then your team will suffer. The difference isn't large because you use stupid renown setups on the 2h tanks. Give them both full mitigation passives and there is a big difference

3) Doesn't apply for guard damage, which keeps being my main point. 2H without additional parry has a hard time mitigating guard damage, 24% is not enough.

4) Skullthumper does not scale with strength or weapon damage. It just happens to be the biggest factor of BO damage. I am assuming the same holds true for the SM equivalent.

[th3gatekeeper]

DT increases your groups dps by about 5% or 6%, depending on initial crit rates and group make-up. If you are slayer-heavy, it will be less than that. Compare that t the size of the wounds debuff on arcing Swing.

I know that when people see the phrase 'extra crit', their heads explode and they think the extra crit is either awesome or terrible, depending on which end of the extra crit they happen to be. But I don't think people realise exactly how much or little benefit the extra crit is providing. DT is a good tactic for a tank for that is normally the lowest dps tank in the game. It delivers a reasonably large damage boost for the group that the kotbs would find it difficult to replicate in other ways and, in doing so, makes up for the kotbs' lack of dps. But it isn't amazing.

I took me making a BW myself to learn how dumb I was trying to justify a 2H Knight.... Atleast my Chosen has a viable 2H tank spec. There is no such thing as a DPS tank... Its called a MDPS wanna be, and frankly, id rather have a WL or slayer in my party over a "DPS TANK" anyday....

I'm guessing your head has exploded. You have failed to distinguish between the BW's total crit rate and the extra crit chance provided by DT.

One of the benefits of DT is that it does increase the chance of a toon getting a string of crits, and this is important for BWs. But, again, this increase isn't amazing. I can provide you with a table of crit string chance versus crit rate if you would like one.

Another benefit of DT is that it applies to aoe as well as single-target damage. In some ways, this is its main benefit. Along with the toughness and resistance auras, the buff to a BWs aoe damage does make the kotbs a very good bombing tank.

OK here is a fun one...

While these metrics cant completely be measured. Something like

Average "free cast" time for a BW with a 2H tank out front: 3 seconds
Average "free cast time" with a SNB tank out front: 5 seconds.

5/3 - 67% increase in damage OMG! SNB > 2H!

Also the thing you alluded to is MUCH MUCH more important than arguably ALL of this. "String of crits" Adding even 1 more crit to a BW combo goes from taking someone down to 20% HP in a few seconds to dead in a few seconds... So while its "DPS" calculation might be small, the effective boost to kill power via bust potential is incredibly high from adding more crit. Or even allowing them 1 more GCD worth of casting before they have to kite, adds a TON TON TON of "kill power" to your team.

The damage increase from affording a BW to stay free casting even for 1 more GCD each "encounter" will out strip the damage increase of your 2H over a SNB tank. So that as a while your team will out DPS your "added utility" so the 2H is left with no real advantage over the SNB tank.