2H and s/b tanks - defence/dps comparison

[Dabbart]

Annaise really likes posting info and then blasting anyone who disagree's...

Ok, I'll take a shot.

Annaise, how can you not consider Block a definite advantage? Block gives an extra check to receive 0 damage from any source. SnB can boost their combat abilities to get damned close to 2h. Can they do exactly the same? Doubtful. But who knows, specific builds and all that. But I garuntee you, it doesn't matter what you do or spec. A 2h can't Block.

I dislike your math systems. I think it's an arbitrary way to prove yourself correct. You stack def on 2h and honestly try to use Str renown points to show that the 2h is superior? Then only use the points into block...

Your arguement is flawed. Espcially your last one. You say, that SnB doesn't automatically make you more surviveable. YES IT DOES YOU JUST PROVED THAT. The caveat of "if you want to match their DPS" is crap. With M2 I can out damage a 2h in the long run.

You AUTOMATICALLY start with block and a BETTER evasion. You have to SPEC a certain way to negate the advantage.

I honestly think that you just like argueing with people annaise.

EDIT: all of this is ignoring equipment and abilities. Y'know, the most important parts of the character.

[Annaise16]

Stacking parry and dodge/disrupt is as good a defence against aoe as stacking block.

But as a 2H where can you readily get 45% dodge/disrupt w/ the side effect of 15% for your allies behind you? HoTL is amazing in the zerg v zerg warfare in ORvR. Not to mention milking out as much dps as you can get on your tanks is negligible at that scale compared to 6v6 where every little bit certainly counts.

That 45% is only against ranged damage and there is a lot of aoe damage from melee toons as well.

And when you are channelling HtL, you are doing nothing else. You are not dpsing, you are not using cc, and, apart from chosen and kotbs, you are not buffing or debuffing. You can barely even move.

HtL is mostly used in fairly dead-end situations - spawncamping, stand-offs at keep assaults, etc. It might be useful for people who can't think of better uses for their tank, but it isn't an ability that changes the outcome of a fight.

[Annaise16]

Annaise really likes posting info and then blasting anyone who disagree's...

Ok, I'll take a shot.

Annaise, how can you not consider Block a definite advantage? Block gives an extra check to receive 0 damage from any source. SnB can boost their combat abilities to get damned close to 2h. Can they do exactly the same? Doubtful. But who knows, specific builds and all that. But I garuntee you, it doesn't matter what you do or spec. A 2h can't Block.

I dislike your math systems. I think it's an arbitrary way to prove yourself correct. You stack def on 2h and honestly try to use Str renown points to show that the 2h is superior? Then only use the points into block...

Your arguement is flawed. Espcially your last one. You say, that SnB doesn't automatically make you more surviveable. YES IT DOES YOU JUST PROVED THAT. The caveat of "if you want to match their DPS" is crap. With M2 I can out damage a 2h in the long run.

You AUTOMATICALLY start with block and a BETTER evasion. You have to SPEC a certain way to negate the advantage.

I honestly think that you just like argueing with people annaise.

EDIT: all of this is ignoring equipment and abilities. Y'know, the most important parts of the character.

It can be an advantage for defence, but it is not a guaranteed advantage. And to gain that advantage, you have to make sacrifices.

You may have noticed that I made the same argument for going 2H. It can provide an advantage, but that isn't guaranteed. And to gain the adavntge, the tank, once again, has to make sacrifices.

The point is that the advantages and sacrifices of both builds are very balanced. Because they are balanced, an s/b tank is not automatically superior to a 2H tank. How difficult is that to understand?

[TenTonHammer]

Arcing swing is wounds debuff

In my eyes that is not as good as an something that cannont be defended agaist that increases critical hit chance by 10% for every one along with giving free 10% crit chance critical heal chance

Furthermore if you want a wounds debuff, slayers can provide you with one as well, which is more benifical in grp play since it's all about focussing targets

Now chosen, what does chosen get; rending blade and oppressing blows so that they can better apply crippling strikes on a target, Chosen dosnt NEED either in order to apply crippling strikes, blast wave can also be used to apply it in an aoe and the crit tactic isn't necessary with BO's iniative stat steal

When you go 2H chosen you have to spec like this:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=cho ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Where as SnB can do the classic tri spec and get access to not only DFV but also down fall and mixed defenses

BG we all already know has issues that make it non worthwhile to get CD, was talked to death in the other thread

BO between gork smash, stab you godder, and loudmouth can DPS fine with SnB and does not get anything unique for going 2H bar Da Big Un which is generally considered an awful ability that you only spam to proc bellows till you get your hands on big swing in exchange if you go SnB you get You Sez me block, 2 10% block tactics as well as You Missed Me which stacks with Crippling strikes for. 45% physical dmg reduction which is pretty good

I am slightly amused that you state I am SnB biased I specifically state that 2H is good on both. SM and. IB

IB espically is very strong and viable as a 2H tank, it loses access to none of its strong group buffs while still being able to spec for pretty much all the ones that the SnB variant can, trades it's shorter CD but unreliable KD for a reliable but longer CD one

All the while still staying very durable


SM just has issues and quite frankly, just plays better as a 2H tank

[Tankbeardz]

The shield only increases survivability if you are also forfeiting dps.

The aim of the game is to kill the toons on the other side. So dps is utility.

So in your eyes the "extra dps" is not only equal to the things i listed before (DT, spiteful slam, HTL!, Destined for victory etc) but also holds the same value in group play?

Lol. 2H tanks also get very good abilities that s/b tanks can't use. Why do you never mention Arcing Swing in the same sentence as Dirty Tricks? It's conceivably better than DT in many situations.

I know that you obsessed by the perceived superiority of s/b builds/specs. You really should try to work your way past this bias.

In a 6v6, DT is better than arcing swing...I'm not sure how you can compare the 2. I can't ever bring myself to run SnB on a KOTBS, mainly because it bores me. In all honestly, the best tanks are good with Guard Swap, CC and situational awareness and people place way too much emphasis on cookie cutter specs, rather than the skill of the tank involved. On a Chosen, prefer the m4 goodness that SnB gives you to anything that a chosen can accomplish with a 2h. Just my 2 cents.

[th3gatekeeper]

I was really hoping for more here... THe title intrigued me, but the OP lost me with too much jargon... Just being frank.

At the end of the day, there are not very many "acceptable" 2H tank builds.

I would say there are arguably only 4 of the tanks that can argue for a 2H.. and quite honestly, I would cut that number to probably 2... But ill leave that opinion for another time.

The FOUR generally "acceptable" 2H tanks are:
1) Chosen
2) SM
3) BO
4) IB

Now... I think part of this logic is flawed and is failing to look at a ton of other factors...

First, the impact of guard. Guard is arguably the most important thing any tank can do. Focusing on guard, means that almost by definition you will not be DPSing 100% uptime. You will be following a MDPS and trying to /assist off them. The more parry and block you have the more guard damage you can tank as well as the less healing it requires MEANING more healing for allies who need it... Every heal spent on a tank, I would argue MIGHT have been better spent on an ally.

I look at the tank class as damage in, vs damage out. This is IMO the proper lens in which to view tanks by and large.

As a SNB, that ratio is VERY strong... Very low damage in, requires less babysitting from healers, meaning greater party utility - especially when combined with HTL. You dont NEED more damage out, because that ratio is already good and you can focus on utility like KD, slow, AP drain, removing enchantments, knockbacks, the list is endless...

As a 2H tank, by definition your damage inc is MUCH higher, and while your damage outgoing is also higher, you actually WONT be focusing on utility, but rather damage. I see this FAR too often with most 2H tanks thinking their increase in damage is really helping "utility". While this is true FAR FAR FAR too many go overboard and forget the PRIMARY roll of the tank ISNT damage believe it or not... In fact our "utility damage" as a 2H falls FAR down on the list of the utility we provide.

This weird way of trying to justify a 2H tank or something is very odd to me... It fails to focus on the larger picture and IMO is too consumed with trying to justify a 2H tank... Look, I play a 2H chosen... But my chosen has 60% parry chance and nearly 8k HP. I focus on defensive stats first like parry/disrupt/dodge consuming my renown - which BTW Block can do all those in ONE stat...

My Chosen has some nice synergy with 2H due to crip strikes - which means I can stack crit, which increases my damage and on average decreases their damage... I focus on things like reduced chance to be parried (I am at 7%) because I can land punts and other abilities better to proc crip strikes etc. EVERYTHING is focused on min/maxing that ratio of damage incoming vs damage outgoing not just for me, but for my party as well.

For a Knight, as an example, the BIGGEST boost to "damage outgoing" is going to be the 20% crit build PLUS the inc heal tactic (by increasing healing done, that has a direct relationship to reducing the impact of damage incoming).

Other builds like BO/SM 2Hs have SO MUCH outgoing damage, that some people argue they are viable. I still think SNB is better for Both, WW is amazing for SM who can go SNB and still dish amazing damage AND be pretty tanky (min/max outgoing vs incoming dmg again).

So I think you need to change the lens on which you view the class IMO. Its MORE about your impact to the group - hence why guard is HUGE (reduces damage inc) and why group buffs > self buffs. Why Parry > STR... Why rocking in the 600s on STR is just fine as a tank when you can make yourself a beast to take down.

[Dabbart]

It can be an advantage for defence, but it is not a guaranteed advantage. And to gain that advantage, you have to make sacrifices.

You may have noticed that I made the same argument for going 2H. It can provide an advantage, but that isn't guaranteed. And to gain the adavntge, the tank, once again, has to make sacrifices.

The point is that the advantages and sacrifices of both builds are very balanced. Because they are balanced, an s/b tank is not automatically superior to a 2H tank. How difficult is that to understand?

Sigh.

No. You said "Any benefit of one choice over the other is going to come down to the abilities and tactics you choose to complement your dps and evasion stats, not from the stats themselves." That is incorrect, as your initial specs prove! You HAVE to add a spec of some type to one and the exact opposite to the other to make the 2h more survivable.

Outside of Spec, the SnB has a survival advantage. It has Block, the 2h doesn't. Add a spec to one and a different to the other, and oh my, look what I can make math show... You are not comparing properly.

Run a full defensive SnB and 2h, compare the defensive stats and damage difference, now run a pure damage 2h and SnB spec. Compare defense and damage differences. Trying to build their specs to make them even is ridiculous to prove your point is ridiculous.(Edit. It is so ridiculous I shall allow the typo to stay.)

On a pure defensive spec, the SnB is leaps and bounds better. But it's BASE damage sucks. The 2h has good base damage in off spec, as does the SnB. Not as good, but not terrible. However, the SnB STILL has Block. The SnB has more defensive capabilities regardless of what spec you are comparing. As long as you actually compare like with like. If I wanted to I could make a random comparison that shows how my 72 VW beetle is a FAR better vehicle than a brand-new VW. Ofc, that doesn't make it true in a straight up side-by-side comparison.

[Annaise16]

[quote="Tankbeardz

In a 6v6, DT is better than arcing swing...I'm not sure how you can compare the 2. I can't ever bring myself to run SnB on a KOTBS, mainly because it bores me. In all honestly, the best tanks are good with Guard Swap, CC and situational awareness and people place way too much emphasis on cookie cutter specs, rather than the skill of the tank involved. On a Chosen, prefer the m4 goodness that SnB gives you to anything that a chosen can accomplish with a 2h. Just my 2 cents.[/quote]


DT increases your groups dps by about 5% or 6%, depending on initial crit rates and group make-up. If you are slayer-heavy, it will be less than that. Compare that t the size of the wounds debuff on arcing Swing.

I know that when people see the phrase 'extra crit', their heads explode and they think the extra crit is either awesome or terrible, depending on which end of the extra crit they happen to be. But I don't think people realise exactly how much or little benefit the extra crit is providing. DT is a good tactic for a tank for that is normally the lowest dps tank in the game. It delivers a reasonably large damage boost for the group that the kotbs would find it difficult to replicate in other ways and, in doing so, makes up for the kotbs' lack of dps. But it isn't amazing.

[th3gatekeeper]

DT increases your groups dps by about 5% or 6%, depending on initial crit rates and group make-up. If you are slayer-heavy, it will be less than that. Compare that t the size of the wounds debuff on arcing Swing.

I know that when people see the phrase 'extra crit', their heads explode and they think the extra crit is either awesome or terrible, depending on which end of the extra crit they happen to be. But I don't think people realise exactly how much or little benefit the extra crit is providing. DT is a good tactic for a tank for that is normally the lowest dps tank in the game. It delivers a reasonably large damage boost for the group that the kotbs would find it difficult to replicate in other ways and, in doing so, makes up for the kotbs' lack of dps. But it isn't amazing.

Good thing DPS never kills anyone and burst damage does... Do you know how good 10% crit is for a BW? Pro-Tip: ITS AMAZEBALLS...

DO you know what happens to a BW with 10% more crit who also has the flexibility of his healer healing HIM versus trying to keep alive a STR stacked glass canon 2H Knight? HE WRECKS **** UP!!!! If you havnt, I suggest you make a BW. You will see that allowing them to free cast for even another 2-3 seconds because your HTL on the front lines and able to hold them at bay preventing a rush on your back line because your tanky does for your groups ability to kill stuff, DRASTICALLY increases the damage output your team does MORE than grabbing a 2H and doing an AOE wounds debuff with a 2H sword....

I took me making a BW myself to learn how dumb I was trying to justify a 2H Knight.... Atleast my Chosen has a viable 2H tank spec. There is no such thing as a DPS tank... Its called a MDPS wanna be, and frankly, id rather have a WL or slayer in my party over a "DPS TANK" anyday....

[Annaise16]

It can be an advantage for defence, but it is not a guaranteed advantage. And to gain that advantage, you have to make sacrifices.

You may have noticed that I made the same argument for going 2H. It can provide an advantage, but that isn't guaranteed. And to gain the adavntge, the tank, once again, has to make sacrifices.

The point is that the advantages and sacrifices of both builds are very balanced. Because they are balanced, an s/b tank is not automatically superior to a 2H tank. How difficult is that to understand?

Sigh.

No. You said "Any benefit of one choice over the other is going to come down to the abilities and tactics you choose to complement your dps and evasion stats, not from the stats themselves." That is incorrect, as your initial specs prove! You HAVE to add a spec of some type to one and the exact opposite to the other to make the 2h more survivable.
.

If you re-read the paragraph from which you took that quote, you will see that I was referring to builds balanced between dps and defence. And the quote makes perfect sense in that context.