[Implemented] Crimson Death (duration)

[noisestorm]

The real problem, that Zumos pointed at is that the class is overshadowed by something else (marauder obviously) and therefore seems weak, while it in fact not really is.

The "real" problem is not the marauder even though you have to mention him in any of your posts within this thread. Armor debuff can be provided by BO, Wounds debuff by CH. Those are the classes the BG has to compete with. Not the marauder. Both tanks provide much more utility including the same things a BG does (in way better versions) - outgoing HD excluded - with an essential difference: the morale on block tactic. /discuss, period. No doubt that marauder has one thing too much - the ic healdebuff - but that's a whole different archetype and not a part of this discussion so i suggest (again), you stay within the archetype the BG belongs to. As for clarification without the intention of derailing: If there are classes suffering from the overloaded marauder kit their names are: Choppa, WE & MDoK. Remove the ic hd and one part of the destru cheese meta is solved. 2 problems remaining one is the BG who lacks something unique compared to Ch/BO. He doesn't provide anything CH/BO couldn't. To make him viable we need more than just a 5s increase on CD. As i said for me it's a quality of life change and it will have no impact to any part of the PvP.

Sorry to come up with it again, but if you think about earlier times the Marauder and the BG armordebuffs were swapped. So if you wanted the big debuff the BG was for it, not the mara - but that bad change aside. Also i wouldnt say that the lifedebuff of Mara is anywere weaker than the Chosen one. In fact it has a higher value. TB being singletarget and Blastwave aoe doesnt really matter though, since its CD is really low and can be reapplied at all times. Also with BG your armordebuff will most likely still be higher if you have specced up to CD than a BO will have it if he goes for AoE slow+ Knockdown. Not to forget that the BG lifedebuff from tactic is higher than the Chosen one, so no - he has not to compete with those. He has to compete with the marauder if you want to hear it or not.

But yes whatever you say..

[noisestorm]

. So my opinion would just be like stated before: if they want to get a change on CD duration then Yes, they have to give something in return for it.

In the case of the 2h BG: that's like giving a starving dog a piece of meat, and then cutting off its tail. The 2h BG is probably the squishiest of all tanks and doesn't offer anything other than CD: if it is going to have CD buffed (and this buff - as aza said - is more a QoL thing) then it should have it buffed without having to suffer some loss as a consequence. Amazes me how overpowered classes like the KOTBS are, and yet when a trivial buff is being discussed for one of the weaker tanks people seem to ignore the bigger picture

Like said before, dont worry that Kotbs is not discussed yet - It will come for sure. Also as said before, there still is Blade of Ruin to be looked at for the 2h BG, which is known to be not in the best spot.

[peterthepan3]

. So my opinion would just be like stated before: if they want to get a change on CD duration then Yes, they have to give something in return for it.

In the case of the 2h BG: that's like giving a starving dog a piece of meat, and then cutting off its tail. The 2h BG is probably the squishiest of all tanks and doesn't offer anything other than CD: if it is going to have CD buffed (and this buff - as aza said - is more a QoL thing) then it should have it buffed without having to suffer some loss as a consequence. Amazes me how overpowered classes like the KOTBS are, and yet when a trivial buff is being discussed for one of the weaker tanks people seem to ignore the bigger picture

Like said before, dont worry that Kotbs is not discussed yet - It will come for sure. Also as said before, there still is Blade of Ruin to be looked at for the 2h BG, which is known to be not in the best spot.

Fair points. I guess any changes to the class will need to bear in mind further/future changes, too.

[Bretin]

Also BG your armordebuff will most likely still be higher if you have specced up to CD than a BO will have it if he goes for AoE slow+ Knockdown.

Good luck finding one BO who is dumb enough to spec the Knockdown. Maybe the same guy who runs FM on WE?
A CD specced BG means your group has a weak link. If he doesn't want to explode he won't even have the utility from Anguish while the BO will have an equal high armor debuff, more combat uptime e.g. more damage, more group utility and defense.

Not to forget that the BG lifedebuff from tactic is higher than the Chosen one, so no - he has not to compete with those.

Laughable, they are both almost equally high. Unlike BW the tactic HD does not scale with mastery points. It's a flat value (120 at lvl40 afaik). Pretty sure chosen is close to it. If you now compare the rest of a 2h bg to a SnB Chosen you will have to admit that there is no reason to run a BG over a CH.

He has to compete with the marauder if you want to hear it or not.

and slayer competes with runepriest nowadays when having an active prayer of devotion.

[Valfaros]

Okay some things
BG 2h is already not really viable
Crimson Death is one of the strongest hitting abilitys he has
You want to nerv the CD by 50% while then
only buffing the uptime of the debuff by 30%
Looks like a nerv to me which I can't get he already isn't viable why would you do that...

15 sec CD, 10 sec duration => 4x per minute with a 40 sec utpime
vs
10 sec CD, 5 sec duration => 6x per minute with a 30 sec uptime

Doesnt look like a nerf to me man?

You are lookig on debuf part of CD only. How about dmg part?
4x per minute = 100*4=400dmg
6x per minute = 100*6=600 dmg
p.s. shuold bg without dmg tree

That is exactly the point of it. I mentioned that several times now. Longer uptime on extra crit for the BG equals more damage through all other sources. Therefore the overall damage will remain roughly the same for the BG, while the damage output of everyone besides the BG will increase. The BG does NOT need any buff in his damage. He needs a buff in utility and that will be provided by how i would change it. Also i repeat it AGAIN as well: That the class needs buffs on other points is also know, but thats not up to debate right now. There is no need to overbuff this speicific skill at all.

Roughly the same mkay, thats about a 50% dmg nerv +-5% from the extra crit duration sorry but that is not the same. Noone really noone will every complain about this.

If you are afraid that the dmg of all classes is going to be to high well then BG is just not the place to be afraid of yes he can deal good dmg at times but if you take a 2h BG in your team you most of the time give up other things in order to mentain a off guard. You always mention later gears, you know what later gears also have A LOT of deffensives atm I nearly have any resistance because of the crappy accessoires and I also have lower health than ever my healers who were on live nearly unkillable are melting in milliseconds because they don't get their stats and because a lot of rr tactics don't work if these work the dmg will be low enough and nobody will care then about BG...there are ton of other mechanics that need tweaking with later gear (esp. extra crit dmg because they will get overperforming bonuses from later gears)

Black Guard needing a buff in utility? It has a strong armor debuff, wounds debuff,/quote]
I don't want to derail this by saying Mara has these changes but I think it's fair game to consider in a balance discussion, correct? These debuffs are all not needed because Marauders has these in stronger capacity.

crit chance debuff, block/parry debuff

Yep

healing debuff

Choppa also has access to outgoing HD. Also, applying the healdebuff as a tank is often hard and only really works if the enemy healers are not paying attention or you won the fight already. It's a nice tool to have but by no means a gamechanger

longest knockdown in game

with a 20s cooldown on a reactionary KD that only triggers on block. The difference between a 3s KD and a 5s KD is already not that huge. The fact that other KDs are either on demand (IB, Cho, KotBS, (BO)) or have a lot shorter CD (IB that also happens to trigger on parry) makes the knockdown pale in comparison. Yes it sounds nice to have that LONGEST KD IN GAME but it has a long cooldown, it's neither on demand nor as easy to trigger as IB and it scales with Hatred meaning it also needs setup time.

The difference between a 3s KD and a 5s KD is mostly death but no big deal there.

[zumos2]

The real problem, that Zumos pointed at is that the class is overshadowed by something else (marauder obviously) and therefore seems weak, while it in fact not really is.

The "real" problem is not the marauder even though you have to mention him in any of your posts within this thread. Armor debuff can be provided by BO, Wounds debuff by CH. Those are the classes the BG has to compete with. Not the marauder. Both tanks provide much more utility including the same things a BG does (in way better versions) - outgoing HD excluded - with an essential difference: the morale on block tactic. /discuss, period. No doubt that marauder has one thing too much - the ic healdebuff - but that's a whole different archetype and not a part of this discussion so i suggest (again), you stay within the archetype the BG belongs to. As for clarification without the intention of derailing: If there are classes suffering from the overloaded marauder kit their names are: Choppa, WE & MDoK. Remove the ic hd and one part of the destru cheese meta is solved. 2 problems remaining one is the BG who lacks something unique compared to Ch/BO. He doesn't provide anything CH/BO couldn't. To make him viable we need more than just a 5s increase on CD. As i said for me it's a quality of life change and it will have no impact to any part of the PvP.

While it is true that the Black Guard directly competes with the Chosen and Black Orc, that doesn't mean you can ignore the rest of the party when looking at the balance of the tanks. The fact remains that much of the utility of the Black Guard is nullified by having even a single Marauder. Also the Black Guard does have something unique with a spammable outgoing heal debuff. In the playstyle of 6v6 with 2 mdps it just doesn't work so well. So that said, the Black Guard might indeed something extra unique to make it a viable choice over the Black Orc or Chosen. Lastly, I disagree with the fact that the mdps DoK is suffering from the Marauder being so strong. It is a more defensive option that thrives with all the Marauder debuffs. Witch Elf and Choppa are definitely suffering since they dont really bring anything the Marauder cannot.

And to stay on topic, this little buff alone doesn't mean anything. Not a reason not to give a little love to two-handed Black Guards

[zumos2]

Crimson Death is a great ability with a 50% uptime.

The problem as I see it is in comparison with other tanks and other similar utility abilities, dirty tricks in a defensive posture and encouraged aim on a RDPS so comparative studies are less than straightforward.

I personally wouldnt want to see cave in clone or the ability fundamentally changed but I wonder if a side grade over a duration increase may be a better solution and to look at the ease of order side critial rate increasers looked at in their own domain.

As a left of field sidegrade I wouldnt mind Crimson Death gaining an Earthshatter-esque snare component with duration based off hate.

Making Crimson Death castable with a SnB would be a more significant increase to the strength of the BG, especially if you also give it a 100% uptime. But that would make using a two-hander completely useless and I do not know if that is what we want.

[TenTonHammer]

The only time BG's armor debuff is higher than BO's is at max rage but if your spamming out CD, howl, and other sources of hate to get the crit boost then your not going to be at max hate

Crimson Death is a great ability with a 50% uptime.



As a left of field sidegrade I wouldnt mind Crimson Death gaining an Earthshatter-esque snare component with duration based off hate.

No its not

5s is far too short of a duration to be useful

If you add an AoE snare to CD then whats the point of wave of scorn? and even then whats the point of either when Blorcs have big brawlin

[thullonse]

to look at the ease of order side critial rate increasers looked at in their own domain.

dont get me wrong, i welcome changes like that for weaker specs but stop using that argument. destruction dps classes have easy access to crit tactics aswell. the only difference is that order healers are affected by the crit tactics(DT, EA) and destro healers dont have access to that. but on the other hand id even argue that destro healers are stronger than their mirrors (except for RP/Zealot and thats only because Ritual of Innovation is worse than Rune of Fury).

[TenTonHammer]

Order has ease of acess to critical hit chance increasers

destro has more access to crit hit damage increasers