[Implemented] Crimson Death (duration)

[noisestorm]

Okay some things
BG 2h is already not really viable
Crimson Death is one of the strongest hitting abilitys he has
You want to nerv the CD by 50% while then
only buffing the uptime of the debuff by 30%
Looks like a nerv to me which I can't get he already isn't viable why would you do that...

15 sec CD, 10 sec duration => 4x per minute with a 40 sec utpime
vs
10 sec CD, 5 sec duration => 6x per minute with a 30 sec uptime

Doesnt look like a nerf to me man?

Edit: Like i said before, as his whole Kit will profit from the 10% extra crit (which is by the way the correct implementation) you definitely need to rebalance the amount of times he can use this spell to keep the overall damage of the class itself balanced. So in my above example of "per minute" you get a 10 sec longer crit debuff for the whole party (or warband), while the BG can only use the spell 2 times less. Pls tell me where this is unfair

[sanii]

Then I would say it is not implemented correctly. The tool tip says others, implying not the black guard.

It is implemented correctly , it is actually the tooltip text that is slightly misleading , 10% more likely to be critically hit on a target is universally effective for anyone attacking that target including the BG.

[bloodi]

I cant see why it deserves a cd increase, its not like we are talking about a dominant force on the battlefield, testing 100% uptime with 10 secs cd would be fine for now.

Edit: Like i said before, as his whole Kit will profit from the 10% extra crit (which is by the way the correct implementation) you definitely need to rebalance the amount of times he can use this spell to keep the overall damage of the class itself balanced. So in my above example of "per minute" you get a 10 sec longer crit debuff for the whole party (or warband), while the BG can only use the spell 2 times less. Pls tell me where this is unfair

Its 5 secs of extra 10% crit if we are purely looking at the BG damage only, thats 4 gcds, he is giving up a lot for it, specially since damage is pretty much the only thing he gets in return, you are making a big deal out of a small change.

[murmelon]

Okay some things
BG 2h is already not really viable
Crimson Death is one of the strongest hitting abilitys he has
You want to nerv the CD by 50% while then
only buffing the uptime of the debuff by 30%
Looks like a nerv to me which I can't get he already isn't viable why would you do that...

15 sec CD, 10 sec duration => 4x per minute with a 40 sec utpime
vs
10 sec CD, 5 sec duration => 6x per minute with a 30 sec uptime

Doesnt look like a nerf to me man?

You are lookig on debuf part of CD only. How about dmg part?
4x per minute = 100*4=400dmg
6x per minute = 100*6=600 dmg
p.s. shuold bg without dmg tree

[Toldavf]

Then I would say it is not implemented correctly. The tool tip says others, implying not the black guard.

It is implemented correctly , it is actually the tooltip text that is slightly misleading , 10% more likely to be critically hit on a target is universally effective for anyone attacking that target including the BG.

If that's the general consensus of the devs I'll drop that point.

Back on topic any cool down applied to an ability should take into consideration the modifications that can be applied to it. I don't believe any CD increase is necessary at the end of the day crimson death is a defendable ability its up time will never be as noise suggests there are times it will be parried or have its own CD increased. These things should provide enough counter play to it.

[Annaise16]

An important point that no one seems to have mentioned about both Crimson Death and Encouraged Aim is that they are aoe. So they are akin to the kotbs/chosen auras (and the less reliable SM/BO blade enchantment/bellow) in their effect. Just for the sake of a comparison, I'll give you some numbers to demonstrate the point.

In tier 4, a 10% increase to crit chance will increase average dps on a target from:
+50% crit damage classes by about 3-4%
+100% crit classes by about 6-8%
+150% crit class by about 7-8%.

The extra crit chance will also provide a slightly increased chance of stringing together a series of crits, which is an added bonus.

Now a 100-point toughness debuff on the same toons will increase incoming damage by about 6%. (It will be a little less on tanks and other toons that have stacked toughness.)

So, on average, the crit tactics will increase average damage by roughly the same amount as the kotbs/chosen toughness auras.

Of course, the toughness auras can be countered by toughness buff auras from toons on your own side. At the same time, extra crits can trigger a few procs that might result in some extra dps on top what is mentioned above. But that tends to be situational and it's hard to think of any proc other than the Blurring Shock debuff that would result in a significant amount of extra damage from this source.

Overall, the aoe crit chance boosters are probably better than other debuffs when it comes to adding damage to all toons in an area, but not overwhelmingly so.

P.S. The aoe resistance debuffs can supply larger damage boosts, but only for non-physical damage.

P.P.S. While I was typing my post I see that a small disagreement broke out about how much extra damage the increased duration will provide to the BG using the ability. This value is going to be in the range of 1%-2% extra dps. This is pretty insignificant in the context of the game. The benefit of CD comes what it does for others, not from what it does for the BG.

[Bretin]

Also you guys who always point towards Kotbs skills like DT and EA seem to blatantly ignore the fact that destro DPS themselves have easier access to bonus crit or extra damage compared to order ones. Be it 20% for marauder (the 10% debuff on the mara himself is ridiculious and not even worth being mentioned), 15% for WE (stackable yes, but nonetheless relatively high uptime), 50% WE morale or the 10% extra dmg from Sorc (which makes extra crit also a lot more valuable for overall damage).

Not to forget that Choppa also has a crit damage tactic he can actually use compared to Slayer.

PS: please dont come with Leading Shots as its sh*t..

not even one of your arguments makes sense.

first of all: you are saying "the 10% debuff on the mara himself is ridiculious and not even worth being mentioned".
perfect! so please tell me why are the same 10% chance to be crit are worth an argument if they do affect a class which is not a marauder e.g. a target which got hit by CD? 10% are 10%. period. If 10% is not worth being mentioned on marauder your argument is a failure.

To keep going: The 10% debuff of the marauder (which is not worth mentioning), stacks with DT and EA. So the attacking order Mdps has 30% more crit on the marauder when playing with one kotbs. The marauder himself got 20% crit from FoF which is 10% crit less in total. Besides that the marauder has the lowest base ini of any mdps (24% with BiS gear rn). So you can either add one Swordmaster for the initiative debuff which will bump him to 80+% or a Ancestor's Fury specced IB to get another 10%. I see how much value your argument regarding FoF already has.

15% for a FM slotted WE: i lol'd, especially after you called Leading Shots useless. For me it's a proof that you have a wrong idea of how good/bad tactics are. While LS is a great tactic and used by any half brained SW - when grouped - FM is a full gimp tactic and something i'd never slot in a T4 build.

50% WE morale: countered by 50% WH morale 3. besides that WE is not a meta character and in competitive group fights death before she even has m2. you do not have the bugged morale regen from live hence why counting a M3 is quite ... .

10% extra dmg from Sorc: if a group desides to play with a sorc, they will most likely run a 1/3/2 setup. taking a 2h BG for that setup is laughable and some hurrdurr argument. Might have an impact in large scale PvP but then again the 2h BG will die before he can count to 3. Nothing wrong with CD in that case.

Choppa crit damage: Fierce Might is absolutely viable just more situational than Stab you Gooder + if i would've to choose i'd take Ancestral Inheritance and Push for More any time over Stab you Gooder. Also Choppa is no meta character since marauder still provides an incoming heal debuff. Swapping a marauder and a black orc for a 2h BG and a Choppa would be quite stupid if you aim for a competitive group. Your group would a.) be more vulnerable, b.) loose a lot of utility c.) loose damage since the BO helps the choppa to stay in combat (defensive utility) and provides as much damage as a 2h bg.

In fact BG gets outshined and this "buff" is a quality of life change and it will have little to no impact. Unless you can provide some real arguments i also suggest you stop derailing :^)

[noisestorm]

Okay some things
BG 2h is already not really viable
Crimson Death is one of the strongest hitting abilitys he has
You want to nerv the CD by 50% while then
only buffing the uptime of the debuff by 30%
Looks like a nerv to me which I can't get he already isn't viable why would you do that...

15 sec CD, 10 sec duration => 4x per minute with a 40 sec utpime
vs
10 sec CD, 5 sec duration => 6x per minute with a 30 sec uptime

Doesnt look like a nerf to me man?

You are lookig on debuf part of CD only. How about dmg part?
4x per minute = 100*4=400dmg
6x per minute = 100*6=600 dmg
p.s. shuold bg without dmg tree

That is exactly the point of it. I mentioned that several times now. Longer uptime on extra crit for the BG equals more damage through all other sources. Therefore the overall damage will remain roughly the same for the BG, while the damage output of everyone besides the BG will increase. The BG does NOT need any buff in his damage. He needs a buff in utility and that will be provided by how i would change it. Also i repeat it AGAIN as well: That the class needs buffs on other points is also know, but thats not up to debate right now. There is no need to overbuff this speicific skill at all.

PS:
I will not moderate on this subject for now since i am somewhat pissed by how ignorant some ppl are, but if you guys dont start to explicitly point out problems in the argumentations provided, i will kindly ask the other Blue guys to have a look at this topic.

[bloodi]

PS:
I will not moderate on this subject for now since i am somewhat pissed by how ignorant some ppl are, but if you guys dont start to explicitly point out problems in the argumentations provided, i will kindly ask the other Blue guys to have a look at this topic.

We pointed out how the damage increase its for the BG itself, is not that much, which was your main argument about it.

What else do you need?

[Bretin]

I will not moderate on this subject for now since i am somewhat pissed by how ignorant some ppl are, but if you guys dont start to explicitly point out problems in the argumentations provided.

i guess i proved any of your arguments wrong in my prior post. asking us/me to "point it out" even more while ignoring my arguments is quite funny. your argumentation in this whole thread is 100% biased and from an super odd PoV.