Terrible Embrace (range check, defensibility)

[Loengrin]

So if we remove end range check from mara's TE we have the following counterplays:

You can taunt (but it will give no CD so mara can use it again), you can disrupt it (and this is not really a counterplay more like counterLUCK). You also can CC, snare mara.

While WL fetch has counters - you can root, CC, snare, kill pet (and it will give you 15sec resummon CD). And you still get basic counterluck counter as parry chance.
But since fetch is melee ability for lions pet you get extra counterplay- you can evade it just by moving around without using flee while still in 65ft range from WL.

Since lion because of "move away from pet" counterplay has even more counters to his fetch then mara my suggestion is to make lions pet fetch target from a bit more range than now while target is still within 65ft from WL

Noise Edit: We are talking about Terrible Embrace here. Its not the point for you to ask about anything changed to Fetch! !

[bloodi]

I cant stand rng as a balancing factor, if TE is good enough to win or lose you a fight (it kinda is) then i would much rather make it work 100% than losing sometimes because it worked and survivng others because it doesnt.

If its too good, adress it dont make it RNG based, so i am up for it having no defense check besides immunities or it getting interrupted.

Same goes for fetch, if the pet gets to you and you have no immunity, you better be flying through the air, if the mara pulls correctly, i want to be flying, not flying sometimes and others not because a of a rng check.

[Scrilian]

Right now every CC is not reliable apart from few abilities like Incapacitate/Sit Down! and in my opinion there is nothing wrong with that since this is not a competitive arena simulator but an RPG.

The issue that stands out is the lack of any distinct counter-play to TE as mentioned already. It can be somewhat resolved by making TE work like any other channeling skill and go on CD once interrupted/CC'd/failed midcast due to LOS, etc.

The thing that compensated for the obvious inferiority of the WL pull back in the day was the superior range of Fetch! and a slight increase in range of it by 20-30ft is reasonable.

Spoiler:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080915041 ... px?id=9178
150ft
https://web.archive.org/web/20090321004 ... px?id=9178
65ft post nerf

[geezereur]

The first is that during a recent fix to range checks, I added an additional end-cast range check to all cast time spells which can be cast on the move.

I think that change ended up on all casting time abilities, I checked on my Sorc and Shadow Warrior
as soon as the enemy player moved out of ranged all my casting abilities stopped working even if it had 10% casting left, sry for my bad english...


Noise Edit:

The first is that during a recent fix to range checks, I added an additional end-cast range check to all cast time spells which can be cast on the move.

First: Use proper quotes.
Second: The quote obviously states that it targets ALL casts. Also your post is absolutely redundant and contributes nothing to the discussion at hand which is about Terrible Embrace.Do NOT post stuff like this.

[Tesq]

To add a little tough, if you look at both pounce and the wl/mara pull as form of gap closer then having 1 or more form that dont allow you to land or make target land at your location is a bit discriminatory, i mean pounce was fixed to have you land on target latest location and not on target location when skill was used, tough this was done for good to make pounce more usefull as "gap closer" idk how have mara pull became a bit static gap closer instead a more dynamic as in live would be better in realm vs realm balance. Could be tested anyway but i suppose the kiting that this skill suppose to counter as gap closer would be too easy counterable then.

Edit: to add another exemple if you pull from x but the target move also more away and then you still are in range and perform the pull, would it be pulled even more behind due the original location being also behind? i mean if the range check is perform from the mara but the final landing location is a fixed and orignal point even more behind, assuming both are running in 1 direction, the final landing position wouldn't be even more inside enemy lines? So have it fixed on mara also would prevent to be pulled more behind into enemy lines in some cases or add extremly complicated check to position / range etc.

Noise Edit:
First part:

3. No reciprocal adjustments, aka: Don't appeal to your mirror.

When we are balancing classes, we are doing so in isolation. That means when we are considering, for example, Witch Elf and how to address any issues the class may have, we are NOT interested in hearing about how Witch Hunter will need X buffed or Y nerfed in order to maintain mirror parity.

Your first part somewhat relates to this. There is no need to compare Pounce in any form to Mara or TE for this discussion here and you are not supposed to present Mara as discriminated because of pounce either. In fact pounce has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

(small PS from me: your Edit is fine and actually states the exact problem a pull to starting loc would bring with it)

[Bretin]

So if we remove end range check from mara's TE we have the following counterplays:

You can taunt (but it will give no CD so mara can use it again), you can disrupt it (and this is not really a counterplay more like counterLUCK). You also can CC, snare mara.

the current counterplays are:

• - interrupt abilities such as taunt or vicious slash
  - immunities
  - silence
  - cc
  - positioning
  - los break e.g. movement
  - rng based disrupt on a non-intelligence based class

to me this looks more than fair.

While WL fetch has counters - you can root, CC, snare, kill pet (and it will give you 15sec resummon CD). And you still get basic counterluck counter as parry chance.
But since fetch is melee ability for lions pet you get extra counterplay- you can evade it just by moving around without using flee while still in 65ft range from WL.

Fetch gets frequently trashtalked on forums. Still i don't understand why. What you guys seem to forget is that the WL does not necessarily have to fetch to close a gap or punish a bad positioning. Due to his high mobility and unique playstyle the WL is able to punish a failure quite fast without a Pull. Fetch is a unique ability which often has a different use than Terrible Embrace. The main problem with this ability is that people comparing it 1:1 to Terrible Embrace. In fact both abilites are equally strong and do have their pros and cons. Those classes WL and Mrd are totally different and can't be compared 1:1. Another thing which has to be respected in terms of balance is the overall realm balance and the capability to kite and prevent kiting on each side, something which gets overlooked quite fast by the majority of WL player.

Since lion because of "move away from pet" counterplay has even more counters to his fetch then mara my suggestion is to make lions pet fetch target from a bit more range than now while target is still within 65ft from WL

Again those abilities are 100% different and do have both different pros and cons. you simply can't justify a buff to fetch by comparing it to TE which has a totally different use on a totally different class within a totally different realm.

[Koha]

It seems that TE doesn't go on cooldown when you interrupt it with Taunt = Taunt is not punishing, the marau can cast another TE straight away. (tested 2 days ago with IB and KOTBS)

[Vayra]

It seems that TE doesn't go on cooldown when you interrupt it with Taunt = Taunt is not punishing, the marau can cast another TE straight away. (tested 2 days ago with IB and KOTBS)

Well yes, interrupting a cast never puts in on cooldown, that is the case for all casts except channels.

[Koha]

Well, casts with CD should go on CD after an interrupt.
Otherwise, I don't see the point to Taunt/interrupt TE =Taunt goes on CD and the marau can cast TE again.

[TenTonHammer]

TEs primary purpose is to pull a target out of position, out of guard range to burst them down

Interrupting a cast gives more/additional response time to the team to switch guard or close in on the maras team etc