T2 and T3 population [NA]

[mursie]

On one hand, the populations in the lower tiers are one of the many things we are hoping to address with the new RvR system. Now that we have the debolster system to allow players to return to those lakes, we need to work out incentives to do so - ones that do not rely on an ephemeral reward like influence or renown.
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Side note request: With the removal of the kill quests earned via sc kills and the lack of rvr activity, income is definitely a bit harder to come by. In addition, sinks like the 60% mount and talismans provide opportunities to greatly deplete any income made.

Debolster requires re-spec since you can't have x amount of mastery points used or you will turn into a chicken.

Could we lower the cost of respec which appears to fluctuate from 4 gold to as high as 6 gold when requested?

Even better - could we remove this archaic system altogether like we've done with respect to the "healer" npc's?

[deathiron]

Good points....I just recently stumbled on this server and my highest to on is 26....there is really no incentive to play in NA (I despise questing) so it is easier just to roll a new toon and go to t1 until "something" changes for t2 and t3.

There are always SC but then again in NA prime time nothing is high pop. Whole thing about T1 is that some classes aren't good in it at all not enough abilities.

[magter3001]

Let's not turn this into a whine thread...

So enlighthen me, what is the problem here?
I mean, if its about the new rvr system, its said again and again how temporary it is

I know it's temporary... I've mentioned that in the thread.

I know that the plan is to revamp the whole rvr system for t4 and possibly t2 and t3 as well. My hope is that the devs don't overlook t2 and t3 when they do make the changes to rvr.

if its about how few people play from NA compared to EU, what do you expec devs to do? Force NA to play their game?

The rewards in Orvr themselves are abysmal in t2 and even though again... devs are against pvdoor, at least we had 3-4 parties of people attack these empty keeps and gave AAO to the opposite side who could gank strays.

I've already mentioned that there was a good t2 population during NA times before the bugged keeps and t4 release (along with it's rvr changes). This isn't really an issue of how few NA players there are as in the screeny I've posted in the OP, you see that there are a ton of people in t1, with most of those people in a small rvr lake in the EvC zone.

One of the issues is that there aren't any incentives for people to leave tier 1 for tier 2. Another is that taking keeps in t2 is a long and difficult task even if they are completely empty and offer no real reward in terms of xp or renown (especially if you're capped).

It is hard to get anyone to play in tiers 2 and 3 because the rvr system in play is the same one used in tier 4. I wholeheartedly agree with the devs in making tier 4 difficult enough because it's the end game and nothing should be given easily. However, in tiers 2 and 3... the gear will become obsolete as soon as they level to tier 4 and it is as big of a chore to gather in the lower tiers. The scenario sets are impossible to get without scenario pops and the rvr sets are as difficult to get as they are in tier 4 since the same system is in place.

My point is that I think tiers 2 and tiers 3 should be treated differently from tier 4 and be given better rewards in terms of xp and renown for quicker leveling. The emphasis should be in making the rvr campaign the main and best source of leveling. Tiers 2 and 3 are not endgame... they are used to teach players about rvr mechanics and ease people into their classes. I'm glad that the devs removed the rats because I hated being forced to kill npc champs in a game I want to pvp in. But there is no system in place that encourages people playing in the lower tiers.

[Tsokushin]

On one hand, the populations in the lower tiers are one of the many things we are hoping to address with the new RvR system. Now that we have the debolster system to allow players to return to those lakes, we need to work out incentives to do so - ones that do not rely on an ephemeral reward like influence or renown.

It's a bit dubious of you to call influence an ephemeral reward. Although yes you can very well outlevel the particular tiers, the influence rewards are best-in-slot for many classes, especially in zones that are never battlefields. This provides ample incentive to be debolstered to a particular tier using those particular best-in-slot items of that tier.

In addition, it greatly adds to the feeling of progression to get influence for particular zones for those of us that don't want to grind grind grind all the way to 40. I like taking my time and participating in all the battles.

I think the best solution to this influence problem is as quoted here:

Some ideas on how to fix t2 and t3 for NA:
Implement a hidden aao for both sides. It only becomes active if there's less than a full wb. This would favor both sides during low pop and balance itself out when more ppl log on during peak EU. Current aao would be additive.

Have some kind of toggle for influence where it could funnel all or part of your influence gains to a faction. could be through an npc menu. So basically while fighting in empire, you active the toggle/npc thing and 50%/100% of your influence gains would go to dwarf or elf. So even if there's mostly fights in empire you can complete and get the rewards for other races.

This influence toggle would be the best solution to this entire influence problem if the developers insist that there be no influence rewards from taking battlefield objectives and keeps that are not defended. I understand that it's a temporary system, but right now the developers have free reign on what changes go through and there's no guarantee that a good deal of the systems in place do not remain permanent.

[nordicocean7]

Look i want to start by saying i think i feel as we all do a great deal of appreciation for what the Devs have made possible. That said this last patch has had a profoundly undesirable effect on the game..In my opinion. I agree with trying to avoid doorhammer..but what we have know is pushhammer...With no real progress through the zones. As it was in Live, the equilibrium within the game is and was always created by the population of each tier. The devs just remained neutral and forged on. While i like very much the idea..of making it harder to avoid actual RVR..i feel like that has been done anyhow via this patch. I am as well a NA player and the lower tiers are very stalemate. The motivation to change zones is gone. I really feel that the game should be what it was in Live..there is no way to funnel people into playing the game in a pre desired way..Live plus a few improvements is fine. The devs have said nothing is permanent..that it is an Alpha..we understand that..i really look foreword to seeing what is next to come..But r2-t3 even t4 have felt like a very barron, empty and pointless activity since last patch. Hope to see something a little bit more middle of the road.

[navis]

A XP stopper system (like the books) still makes sense in many regards, and DOES promote population in those tiers. I would use it my self for alts, I think it would even compliment the existing system well - one which I don't currently make use of.

Anyways the game is basically 'frozen' from the last set of changes to Renown/level cap, removal of the kill quests from scenarios (I didn't think was necessary).

*the way scenario quests work in RoR compared to AoR was something I liked better than in AoR from the start.

[Tesq]

to op, like de-bolster 1 zone at time for both t2-t3 and make those debolster zone lock matter in regard of t4 campaign?

also for anything similar, please in the future reset the influence rewards of the t4 player.

[Genisaurus]

On one hand, the populations in the lower tiers are one of the many things we are hoping to address with the new RvR system. Now that we have the debolster system to allow players to return to those lakes, we need to work out incentives to do so - ones that do not rely on an ephemeral reward like influence or renown.

It's a bit dubious of you to call influence an ephemeral reward. Although yes you can very well outlevel the particular tiers, the influence rewards are best-in-slot for many classes, especially in zones that are never battlefields. This provides ample incentive to be debolstered to a particular tier using those particular best-in-slot items of that tier.

In addition, it greatly adds to the feeling of progression to get influence for particular zones for those of us that don't want to grind grind grind all the way to 40. I like taking my time and participating in all the battles.

Perhaps I should have clarified - when I say it's an ephemeral reward, I don't mean it's useless, I mean it's ability to reward players with it is temporary. Eventually, you will cap out your influence, and it will no longer provide an incentive. Just like rewarding with renown is inherently flawed, because eventually most of your playerbase will no longer need renown.

Trying to guide player behavior with rewards that they only desire a finite amount of is like trying to fence in a bunch of cats - eventually they realize they don't need your structure and guides, and they abandon it to do their own thing.

[leutwig]

All of my characters are either in T2 or T3. This week I had a Monday off work, so got to play during the Euro primetime. There was multiple WBs, keep defense and battles over BO's in T2. I saw more action playing for an hour then than I have in the past few weeks playing NA PST evenings. Nothing the devs can do about the population.

I can also say that the recent changes to RvR such as no inf/rr/xp from BOs, no levelling RR past your level, removal of certain kill quests and keeping kill quests zone specific really seemed to work during the Euro primetime. I had fun, got a real good chunk of inf, a few levels and multiple hand-ins for kill quests. So i see where they are going with it and if the population is there it works.

Lets start off by saying that I HATE PVD. Keep swapping, taking undefended BOs and keeps is not something I want to do, even if in the end it rewards me more. During live I always argued against it, I'd much rather defend a keep only to lose it, or try to take one. The problem you run into in NA times is that undefended keeps and BOs are all there is. The only way I was getting inf/xp/rr prior to the changes was from capping BOs and taking empty keeps. Very occasionally an enemy group would show up to fight.

Having kill quests work anywhere was basically necessary to complete any of them, with nearly all of those coming from SCs. I think over the past while I've only got a couple of RVR kills a night. Its usually a long wait for SCs, with lately having 6v1s be not all that uncommon.

Overall I agree with the changes, i see how it works when the pop is there. The problem with NA is that the pop isn't nearly enough. T4 I'm sure has quite a bit to do with it. But with the changes T2 (and now T3 being even worse) is an even bigger slog than ever. It wouldn't surprise me if the low pop and lack of progression through RVR has also lead to a decline in the T2/T3 pop. Not to mention new blood joining the game (which NA most definitely needs) getting turned off by the experience.

I'm not sure what the answer is, because it seems that what works for Euro, doesnt work for NA. T2 which was already a problem to progression, and it is even worse and then you get to T3 which is deader than T2. I understand and generally agree with the opinion that you shouldn't want to rush through the tier, and get your rewards/xp from fighting and playing the game type. But that just isn't possible at this time.

[Slik]

All of my characters are either in T2 or T3. This week I had a Monday off work, so got to play during the Euro primetime. There was multiple WBs, keep defense and battles over BO's in T2. I saw more action playing for an hour then than I have in the past few weeks playing NA PST evenings. Nothing the devs can do about the population.

I can also say that the recent changes to RvR such as no inf/rr/xp from BOs, no levelling RR past your level, removal of certain kill quests and keeping kill quests zone specific really seemed to work during the Euro primetime. I had fun, got a real good chunk of inf, a few levels and multiple hand-ins for kill quests. So i see where they are going with it and if the population is there it works.

Lets start off by saying that I HATE PVD. Keep swapping, taking undefended BOs and keeps is not something I want to do, even if in the end it rewards me more. During live I always argued against it, I'd much rather defend a keep only to lose it, or try to take one. The problem you run into in NA times is that undefended keeps and BOs are all there is. The only way I was getting inf/xp/rr prior to the changes was from capping BOs and taking empty keeps. Very occasionally an enemy group would show up to fight.

Having kill quests work anywhere was basically necessary to complete any of them, with nearly all of those coming from SCs. I think over the past while I've only got a couple of RVR kills a night. Its usually a long wait for SCs, with lately having 6v1s be not all that uncommon.

Overall I agree with the changes, i see how it works when the pop is there. The problem with NA is that the pop isn't nearly enough. T4 I'm sure has quite a bit to do with it. But with the changes T2 (and now T3 being even worse) is an even bigger slog than ever. It wouldn't surprise me if the low pop and lack of progression through RVR has also lead to a decline in the T2/T3 pop. Not to mention new blood joining the game (which NA most definitely needs) getting turned off by the experience.

I'm not sure what the answer is, because it seems that what works for Euro, doesnt work for NA. T2 which was already a problem to progression, and it is even worse and then you get to T3 which is deader than T2. I understand and generally agree with the opinion that you shouldn't want to rush through the tier, and get your rewards/xp from fighting and playing the game type. But that just isn't possible at this time.

I've been playing on and off for a couple weeks now. I can tell you, as a new player, it is a constant fight to try and get anything done in this game atm. I am usually playing 8pm - 1am CST and for the past two nights, its a single WB just going around capping random stuff with ZERO fights for hours.

I seriously don't get it. How can 25 people just go around, capping random stuff with ZERO fights for hours. No XP, No Renown, No Inf, just... capping / chatting... for hours! SC pops two or three times an hour but most of the time, its 4v4 or 4v9 or worse.

I get it, its alpha, and things will take time. But its getting harder and harder to log in when you make no progress. Even right now there is almost 200 people in T4 but 35 in T2 / T3.

I'm sure it will all work out in the long run, just watching Blacklist and waiting for a SC to pop.