Why u hate orvr

[walker68]

if you are in a group it goes to the person who wins the roll.... I have joined WB's and been able to roll on medallions, when in a different area and even different zone.

But you are in the group, that is the point, before you could roll from other zones for all the medallions the entire Wb dropped, you could afk in altdorf all day and get medallions from kills of all 4 groups of your warband.

Currently, it only works for the group you are in.

the changes that were made..... no medallions for zone flips. one of the reasons there is not much open rvr, only in praag atm.

[Gachimuchi]

You get rewarded for taking a "defended" keep. Since no one defends, no one takes. Taking an undefended keep is worthless as there is no gold bag or medallion. So people choose not to take.

Some of this may be due to the fact that people are not aware that defending would award bags. If that word gets out and it's actually functioning, then perhaps more keeps will be defended and in turn more keeps taken. The problem is the chicken and the egg scenario. Which one comes first?

As for rewards for player kills. That definitely is working and it's pretty much the only orvr that is going on right now. Praag skirmishes for player kills and medals. I think this is working well.

Basically this. The old system was working better to incentivize keep sieges whereas now they are largely, nonexistent. Why would anyone go spend 30+ minutes hitting a door only for none of the other realm to show up and receiving nothing? SCs are pretty much the only form of PvP that happens, at least in NA time. In open people die and they just sit in their wc and do scenarios because they won't get any rewards from flipping BOs or taking keeps, so no reason to be in the zone. Aside from the first burst of activity it stops due to domino effect.

Group/WB wipes and they get no kills -> They afk/logout/switch/something not RvR -> Other side groups get bored and leave because no rewards -> Zone is dead

[freshour]

I love the new RvR. It is basically an SC in the lakes haha. Medallion drops are insanely good for actually fighting. Which few/no one did in the previous system.

Near the end of T3 it was decent RvR during EU hours and Saturday and the NA hours was Avocetti and his group getting freenown vs empty keeps and zerging any roaming groups but now that they actually have to fight its fun because they are getting some practice in combat.

Sure it promotes smaller 6 mans running around getting kills. But you can get the rvr sets pretty quick in small groups roaming praag getting kills. I only wish people like the other zones, but maybe when we are all done in Praag they will head to other zones.

This is all temporary. Those doors were never meant to be pve'd down. I was told by a dev it should take 10 mins for a warband to beat the door down. I'd have to argue that it'd take 5 warbands 10 minutes and nearly an hour for a single warband. But that is just my opinon as I had a full warband hitting an empty keep to get a door to 50% to pull people into dwarf lol. The hp on them is insane, totally ridiculous but I realized that it was that way to promote using the items given to us to beat them down. Sure at 15 gold a pop and it taking at least 10-20 of them minimum, they need reduced... Not to mention they need to be able to be healed otherwise no overhaul will fix it haha. But still TEMPORARY.

Just enjoy learning how to fight people. RvR became such a zerg/bomb mentality that nearly none of the "good rvr guilds" were any good at combat. So now they are actually doing SC's (you fight) and smaller group combat (you also fight) - trying tactics, learning how to kite and overwhelm odds they would have never done in the previous system.

1 example then I'll leave it.

- Last night Avocetti's group that normally would hit empty keeps/bo's for hours every night was in Praag. They kept trying to cap BO's and ended up having a WB in martyr square. It was 6 of us in a party and 3 stragglers who noticed we got kills, a lot of them. For over an hour we were scouting, picking off smaller groups of 5-10 people as we made rounds .Finally, the hero pulled, we killed the hero and wiped their entire wb haha. It was some of the most RvR fun I've had since my first T2 100v100 months and months ago. This method promotes people actually fighting for medallions/RR/influence and that is AMAZING. I only hope the new system does as well.

[Olszewski]

WTS TALISMANS cheap!!! : p












wanted to post something different : )

[Genisaurus]

At the moment I see a lot of uninformed discussion related to RvR. Especially attacking/defending keeps. As a guild on Sunday we 'tested' whether or not you could actually take a keep. Allow me to elaborate on some of the issues we encountered.

The main concern with keeps is that it takes 1 WB, 3. Yes, 3 hours, to take both doors down. (without ram) That time scale does not include time for fighting counter attacks/pushes from inside, or even oil killing all your melee in cca 3 seconds. It even depends on relying on other people defending BO's. This is calculated by my WB taking 1 minute 3 secs to take down 1% of door health. (Shock Horror the BWs were specced ST )

When it comes to taking keeps. We should definitely be rewarded. No question. My personal feeling is that you should get a lockout timer from receiving bags/tokens. 6 hour one. If you take an empty keep... Well. No, no you shouldn't get loot or lockout. When we talk about BO's, rewards should scale effort. If you cap an empty BO, gg thanks for helping the zone. If you defend/attack a BO and there is some fighting. Hand out an AAO scale RP bonus for kills. More kills, bigger the tick. I feel we now have enough GMs that after a few incidents of kill swapping (guaranteed to happen), It will get reported and cleared up.

With the current system (yes, I know its going to change.) You can spend all that time taking a keep, take all the BO's push the zone, only for the opposition to lock the BO's in the next zone and you are back in the zone that you spent a lot of invested time capturing. Then you go back and take the BO's only, you keep the keeps, then it locks. <<< This Paragraph explains why you can't have medallions for locks.

I'm really not sure what some people talk about when they mention undefended keeps. Honestly, I have not seen people initiate attacks. Defending is the easy part. Attacking will only get harder the more people on the server. I'm 100% sure that even with the order zerg on Sunday if PF+Pug was defending that keep, the hour to get the first door down would of been wasted. (If they had oil up.) With no counter at all to get in. The only way that will change is if we can somehow add more entrances to keeps. Or a cheesy Knock back aoe cannon, but I really don't like that.

In conclusion, I don't think you guys need to fiddle with too much. It's always going to be down to players to not zerg, or join guilds, or make WBs. If they don't, well, not much you can do about it. Dropping the door HP by X% and maybe make attacking siege weapons X% more dmg to doors would be a decent interim fix to try to get zones moving again. Even if rewards are just kept as they are for now.

P.S wipe merc gear to piss Ade off please.

Let me just say, your testing event was very valuable to us, and we were able to get some solid information about it. At the same time, this was when I had the facepalm realization that calculating the ram spawn position based on the oil position was stopping them from spawning even after I quadrupled the size of the keep PQ radius.

For some transparency, the door HP worked like this (and there are definitely errors in this process that will be fine-tuned. Expect some adjustments when we deploy the ram spawn point fix):

1. A rough napkin test was run to calculate the amount of DPS a warband should be able to put out. This essentially involved a BW in T4 gear throwing fireballs at a door with a DPS meter running. The DPS was recorded as around 900.

2. The above DPS calculation was multiplied by 18 to estimate the DPS that 24 people could put out (assuming half are healers and tanks). I'm sure you can see some errors here - half of an ideal warband couldn't hit the door anyway between oil and collision, and BW/SO DPS is higher than average for an RDPS. The next tweak will probably be to turn the above multiplier down to 12. On the other hand, to be fair, direct-damage cannons can also damage doors.

3. It was determined that a warband with a ram should take about 7-10 minutes to destroy a single door. This is the average time for a scenario, and was deemed a decent amount of time to spend for the quality of the rewards. It also gives defenders enough time to leave another zone, fly to the new zone, and run to the keep to defend.
10 minutes * 60 seconds * 900 DPS * 18 characters-multiplier = 9,700,000 damage in 10 minutes.

4. Ram damage was calculated as an arbitrary number. At 95% swing power, a ram does about 25,000 DPS in T4.
9,700,000 + (10 minutes * 60 seconds * 25,000 DPS) = 24,700,000 damage between the two, combined.

The door HP is currently about 70% of that figure.

Obviously, like I said, there are problems with that whole calculation, and the door HP will be tweaked around corrections to it in the near future. But here's where the KO data is the most useful:

Without a ram, under the above assumptions about DPS, the doors should take 20 minutes each to destroy. Instead, it took all of the people assembled about 90 minutes per door - 4.5 times longer than expected. Part of this is going to be from the bad assumptions about DPS mentioned above, but a good deal of it probably comes from door regeneration from BO ownership.

Many people forget that the defending realm's doors regenerate at a faster rate for every BO the defending realm holds. This is to help an underdog realm defend a keep easier, by sending small parties to cap undefended BOs. The attacking realm must hold these BOs, or get mired in a long siege at the keep. It requires 2 BOs minimum to be able to attack the keep, but with only 2 BOs held, the keep doors will regain 2% of their health every 8 seconds. If the attacking realm holds 3 BOs, the doors will regenerate 1% of their health every 8 seconds, and with all 4 BOs held, the doors will not regenerate at all. However, if the defending realm manages to grab 3 BOs, then not only will the keep door no longer be attackable, it will start regenerating at 4%, or even 6%.

Now, this might not have been an issue, because I have since identified a bug where the BOs would not contribute one way or another to the regen rate in Tier 4. This might have caused a random value to be used, or the doors might not have been regenerating at all. It's just something to consider. In any case, these values might be too high in T4, with the amount of HP doors have compared to the DPS a warband can put out - even with a ram. These will be tweaked as well.

[Olszewski]

Sounds good to me.

[Zanilos]

Thanks for the response Geni,

One thing to remember when calculating damage on the door, most of my BW dmg comes from crits. You can't crit the door. I know magic uses a DPS meter, but if that's from CQ fireball spam and it sounds like it is. Then that isn't feasible. Cannon damage is only 1k iirc, so player damage is way higher than siege damage atm. AoE cannons doing 550 dmg *ish*.

Gaziragas groups were handling the BOs, although I'm not certain, I'm pretty sure that we held all the BO's for the majority of the time. There was no period when we couldn't hit the door.

7-10 mins is a golden time I feel. Good call.

[Genisaurus]

Thanks for the response Geni,

One thing to remember when calculating damage on the door, most of my BW dmg comes from crits. You can't crit the door. I know magic uses a DPS meter, but if that's from CQ fireball spam and it sounds like it is. Then that isn't feasible. Cannon damage is only 1k iirc, so player damage is way higher than siege damage atm. AoE cannons doing 550 dmg *ish*.

Gaziragas groups were handling the BOs, although I'm not certain, I'm pretty sure that we held all the BO's for the majority of the time. There was no period when we couldn't hit the door.

7-10 mins is a golden time I feel. Good call.

In T4, the Single Target cannons should do 2k damage, and the AoE cannons should do about 600. Both of these I feel are a bit too low, especially the latter, but these likely won't be changed before the overhaul (but after that? Exciting).

I'll run a different test tonight to get a better DPS value, and the multiplier will be lowered as well. Ram damage will probably be lowered too, because we're working backwards - targeting a time commitment, and adjusting HP based on how much damage can be generated in that time. Having ram damage at 250% the damage a full warband can deal overinflates the door HP and in turn exaggerates things like regen, or the impact oil can have on a defense.

Additionally, the HP of siege weapons needs to be increased. I did that recently, but I don't know if it's been pushed yet and I've been told my numbers are still too low anyway.

[walker68]

There has been a few good fights at peak times... but man ( martyr's square ) praag is getting really old.

[magicthighs]

Thanks for the response Geni,

One thing to remember when calculating damage on the door, most of my BW dmg comes from crits. You can't crit the door. I know magic uses a DPS meter, but if that's from CQ fireball spam and it sounds like it is. Then that isn't feasible.

Nah, I stood at max range, using this spec. Spec wasn't chosen specifically for this test, already had it, and it seemed OK just for testing purposes in this case because it's a common spec, not specifically geared to top single target dps against doors. The gear I chose to wear was full annihilator with +22 talies though, that may have been a bad call.

Cannon damage is only 1k iirc, so player damage is way higher than siege damage atm. AoE cannons doing 550 dmg *ish*.

Yes, I tested cannons on doors yesterday (on the game server, not dev), heavy cannon didn't even do 1k dps, more like 600-700.

7-10 mins is a golden time I feel. Good call.

Agreed, good number to aim for, defenders should have time to get to the keep to defend, it's in everyone's best interest.