HE Bomb/Orvr WL build

[Marsares]

I like your theorycrafting, but there comes a point that you'll have to put theory into practice and show some videos as I - like many others - am highly sceptical. It's the same with your racial WB thread which turned into dozens of pages, and in the end you didn't show anything in practice.

[footpatrol2]

I'm really sorry this thread has be completely derailed. I'll do a write up spec specific on that HE bomb group.

Let me start off with saying I'm sorry for jabbing at you peterthepan3. Please know that you are continuously jabbing at me, denouncing that my idea's can work without even trying them. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me. But the tone in which you do it is not done nicely. I suspect also that you don't put a lot of thought into my idea's or take them seriously, but maybe you do, I don't know. Most of the time I let your jabs slide off me because I know its unproductive to jab. I jabbed back and its a character flaw that I did so, Sorry.

please list these abilities that were hacked out of the game to conform to the 6v6 meta, because I still see the WL with about 300 pve tactics, dps wp with a 25% heal debuff with no damage, engineer with 50% AA haste for a 1h, etc.

oh and actually, 90% of classes can work in a 6man setting: engi and magus need a bit of love. quit with the strawman arguments if you don't know what you're talking about

4. Pick any class forum. Look at the questions and then look at the responses. This is a broad stroke statement but most of it sits in a meta that has zero room for 2/3rds of the class spec lines out there. This mentality is eliminating 2/3rd's of the game to just fit in this 6 man meta. My perspective is using everything. This 6 man meta is not.

I didn't say class. I said spec lines. The 2/3rds comment was a broad strokes comment stated as such. It could be less or it could be more. The point I was trying to make is that a lot of spec lines out there are deemed worthless in the 6v6 community. I am also making an assumption that you represent the 6v6 community, which i know you don't speak for all of them.

In the next post I'll do some listing for you.

[peterthepan3]

if I come across hostile I sincerely don't intend to do so. It's just - as has been said already - you make a lot of topics concerning these combinations, putting a lot of effort into writing them up (noone is denying that); but I have yet to see empirical evidence of their being functional. also you dismiss the meta as if you have come across an epiphany (you messaged me a few months back telling me that people have been 'doing it wrong' and that the meta is wrong - that is an affront of sorts to the peoples that have been trying and testing combinations for years to come up with the best synergies/group comps)

I empathise with you and would like to see you testing this stuff out. I am more than willing to help out on my am/sm.

[Marsares]

Happy to help on my WL as well. I'd love to see some of your ideas work, but I am practically convinced that they won't. Nevertheless, the real acid test is testing it on the server rather than being a forum-warrior, thus happy to assist.

[mursie]

good luck on your theories footpatrol. It's hard to challenge pre-existing meta but it's cool that you are willing to stick your neck out there and think outside the box. Most ezmode players will seek the comfort of classes like mara because of the limitations you've identified in the other classes. This is only natural - it is the coward's way.

[footpatrol2]

My brief history, this is to help people understand my perspective. I did not play until death of live.

Spoiler:

Here’s my brief history since it seems people are confused on my stance on things. For the first year or 6 months I didn’t know what the hell was happening. After that I started joining other people’s premades. You’d have to log on early to get into those 6 man premades. If you got in early you were in the group for the whole time. People don’t want to leave in those premades so sometimes the wait times to get in were long. So eventually I just started running my own premades. Which got me into creating group compositions. After I felt I conquered 6/12 man mixed groups. I got bored and wanted a new challenge. I then started trying to run racial groups which was counter meta then also. I had some carry over from my mixed groups but not much. I’d try and recruit people but I found that the 6 man mixed community didn’t like my idea’s as they do now. The best players for the racial groups were the new players or old players that were open minded. Most of the 6 man mixed community were not open minded. Since I had to pull new players the gear they had was either conq gear or straight up greens. We would fight other premades that were in warlord quality and we could win. Not 100% of the time but a lot of the time. Once the premades got to be all sov gear the gear divide was too much for our conq group premades. Once Warpforged/demonforged was released it was the nail in the coffin for me as the game got too gear centric. That’s the time period I played through. My conq gear premades had to be more organized and coordinated then the warlord premades otherwise we couldn’t compete.

I’m a alt-aholic. I never focused on just one class. I was more concerned with making my group compositions work then the gear. I’d get my characters up to 40 get conq gear and then join in the premade settings. I had a couple of characters in warlord.

Please note: I don't necessarily have give default respect to players that had a renown rank 100 character. All that means is that they played that one class for a long time. They know the game from that class's perspective. My focus was on all the classes because I was so focused on group compositions. I've played almost all the classes to 40 except empire and DE. I did this to have a better perspective of how those classes work and interact with each other. In addition i'd be able to fill in for group compositions if needed.

I generally don't care about gear. To me this game is whoever has the better coordination and organization generally wins the fights. Its about the team.

I've played this game from release. I've seen this game go through drastic changes and it usually was changed to satisfy the 6v6 community because they were the loudest on the forums(<----opinion).

Please note this is mythic's doing not RoR at all. I'm talking about live and not RoR. RoR has no blame and I am hopeful in the direction forward in this game. I don't know how they feel about the changes I'm about to list below but I feel they weren't needed and mythic catered these changes for the 6v6 community on live (<----opinion).

The listing.

Spoiler:

Some of the abilities that were modified for 6v6 meta from mythic. I was wrong to say hacked out.
Mountain spirit RP m2 going from 30 sec's to 10 (deemed to powerful 6v6)
Tzeentch's talon m1 going form 30 sec's to 10 (deemed to powerful 6v6)
Sprout carapace chosen used to be m3 now m4 in corruption line switched with current m3.
Gromril plating IB m3 used to be for the entire group now just IB
Brutal smash ability BG gained willpower buff used to be disorient. Requested by the community for more mirror pushing.
Thousand one dark blessings m4 Dok 30 sec to 10 (deemed too powerful 6v6)

Interesting it was a morale 4 ability and deemed too powerful... Because anything based on using morale 4's is useless (sarcasm) because it takes too long to get to your morale 4... (Morale 4 pushes were a thang... so it baffles me sometimes when people talk against it.) I think whats happened is people are too used to this (non t4) meta where the time to kill is easier then t4 in hyper competitive 6v6 fights.

Continue listing.
Pounce WL did AoE damage because it was part of the bomb component I listed earlier
WL guardian line pet damage was drastically reduced to the point of almost un-usable
WL had a morale 3 AoE silence 1200 tied to the pet exactly the same as deafening bellow from BO. Another reason to guard the pet.
Eeek from shaman would punt and self punt randomly -- deemed overpowered/underpowered at the time.
Deamonic Reach tactic on magus originally never existed in the magus change line That tactic slot was infernal pain tactic slot. This was done for more mirror pushing. Magus (opinion) besides havoc line is more of a mid-range/close range class then the engineer.
Indigo Fire of change magus upon death of a target would release a blue horror that would run around hitting enemies randomly. It was fluffy and fun.

This list can go on and on. this is just off the top of my head.

I'm sure if I look at the patch notes, I'll remember more of the discussions on the forums back in the day and bring up more.

I'd love to run a High elf premade again. Hell I might if I can't get this chaos group off the ground. I have to follow player interest.

Please note: That HE bomb group I was talking about is a 12 man build at minimum and is more of a zerg busting build so its ORvR. You can do a quick Tactic slot switch though to make it a nasty single assist target group.

[footpatrol2]

@peterthepan3

Spoiler:

The epiphany I had in that mythic's origin's of balance thread and it can be applied to mix groups as well. Is... you just don't need that many tanks. Its not needed.

When your running a premade warband for city pushes.
You want to take a iron hard 12 man group for your first 2 groups as a base and incredibly tough nut to crack. It acts as your rezing platform and heart. The rest you stack high dps classes and healers. Take like 8 sorc's and 4 healers in group 3 and 4. Or you can take 8 change magus's and 4 healers in groups 3 and 4. WP's can't cleanse through 8 magus's.

The classic 2/2/2 in groups 3 and 4 are not as needed. At the least group 4 doesn't need it. I applied this to my racial group thinking.

We are crazy far away from city pushes so whatever on it now.

Look at what I'm trying to do.

Spoiler:

1. Find players that are open minded enough to try out my idea's
2. Peel players away from existing premades/guild groups.
3. Do something that is counter meta which people are hesitant to try
4. Un-teach some habits done by classic premade groups because the playstyle is radically different and not traditional kiting groups. Not that those habits are bad. They are just destructive to what i'm trying to do.
5. Make sure everyone has the same comms and a working mic
6. reliably show up
7. Make sure the tanks know how to work off each other. Switch guard/cycle challenge shout.
8. Teach people how to cycle abilities.
9. Get to near militaristic levels of coordination.
10. The group will fail a lot initially vs premades. Have players that have a tough enough skin to stick it out.
11. Gear as a group to each other. You have separate/multiple gear sets for running in these groups (greens are ok)
12. Spec specifically which isn't usually the current meta spec.
13. Learn how to play off each other.
14. I'm looking for specific classes and not just a Mdps/healer/tank/Rdps.
15. Deal with ego's
16. Figure out preset tactic slot switches that can be done as a group to handle the different premades thrown at the group.

All having zero notoriety. I've only been back to this game 2 months.

That list is a tall order and sometimes it saps the energy out of me. I screwed up last time because the groups all hinged on me and I didn't teach anyone how to make the group compositions and my thinking or how to organize people. I suspect that the 18 man dwarf group stopped forming because I was the only organizer in it.

I appreciate the positive responses. I come up with builds passively its just something I do and have done it for a long long time. I'm actually excited because of all the new builds that have opened up for me in that epiphany moment. Dismiss it if you want. For me coming up with these builds is fun and a fun mental exercise. I'm hoping people look at these idea's and say "Hey that looks like fun I'd like to try it. Maybe it works... maybe it doesn't. Its something I haven't tried yet."
If people do try out the idea's let me know. I'm hyper curious. I'd love to do everything but you straight just can't. You have to focus in on one thing. At the moment its these chaos groups.

I need the players to get the empirical evidence. What I've set out to do will take 3 to 6 months with hopefully enough player interest to grow. I can't do anything without player interest.

[peterthepan3]

nice, just curious - do you have any evidence or cached pages showing that being OP in 6v6 was the actual reason for those changes you listed?

[footpatrol2]

Nope its opinion as stated. I also remember those conversations on the forums at the time. I'm just some player that lived through those times. At the time I was protesting those changes but it fell on deaf ears.

I didn't know i should have documented stuff to make arguments in the future. I bet if the warhammer fourms are around you could find the arguments i was making at the time against those changes.

[Telen]

Good luck with what you're doing. In a game where players had a chance to start a fresh with a new challenge on some of the harder classes yet still all went back to their old doks mara wp and slayers. Youll ll find it hard to get any pres looking for actual challenge. The excuse in live was we had put too much effort into gearing and lvling. Turns out that was a lie.