(Mythic) origins of balance

[roadkillrobin]

no offence, but blizzard probably didn't even know who Mythic were/warhammer online was. they've never been challenged by any other MMO (especially the ones that self-proclaim themselves ''wow killer''). apart from maaaaybe SWG in 03/04.

They were very aware of Warhammer Online and Mythic, they rushed WOTLC out a couple months before WAR release coz they were afraid of loosing costumers to it. And they stole the whole queing system from Warhammer online.

They actually used this strategy and anounced a big patch or expansion everytime a MMO that could threaten em were about to go live.

[papakami]

I'm not sure you can really blame EA for the shortcomings of WAR. Yes, I think they pushed development way ahead of schedule, but ultimately it was the pressures of other mmo's that I think put the nail in coffin.

[footpatrol2]

I've resurrected this thread because I've responded to mursie's question on page 28 of this thread. Please read my response. Its a wall of text but complex idea's have to be delivered like this.

Its slightly unfair to ask 8 years of thought to be summarized into a single short paragraph.

Please also know that I've been getting approached in-game by players that agree with my positions either half-heartedly or whole-heartedly.

[MrHoot]

The real answer really would be poor planning, design and especially poor management. There is no big conspiracy about this, and Blizzard wouldn't waste time and money for something they didn't need to do.

The fact is Mythic/EA were short sighted on a lot of things. Part of the design was aimer towards oRvR while the rest was designed to compete straight against WoW, including aping some of it's mechanics. With schedules being more and more tight there's a lot of stuff that ended up unfinished or forgotten.

Hell, the Tome of Knowledge alone is proof of that. There's a SHITTON of missing stuff in it: missing rewards, achievements. Even entire mechanics like the "card" mechanic that was never finished. I also remember that during beta, it took them a while to even introduce keeps in lower tiers, which was not planned initially until they backed down (after a lot of outcry). The missing capital cities as well, and the overall jankiness of the engine, which even on live didn't manage collision all that well for instance

You're putting way too much importance on the supposed glamour of WAR by the time it was developped. Blizzard wasn't involved because Blizzard didn't care. The fault lies entirely on EA for pushing this product out too fast and Mythic as well, at least a bit, for some very jarring design faults at the core, especially for oRvR.

It was also the common mistake (still is) that the "target audience" of WoW are interested in MMOs at large and would leave it. WoW players were not interested in MMOs. They were interested in WoW. It's the same today with LoL or DOTa players who aren't necessarily interested in MOBAs at large for the most part, they're interested in LoL or DOTA itself

[roadkillrobin]

I think EA were alot to blame tbh. I doubt Mythic wanted to make a WoW Clone wich i think is what EA wanted and pushed for.
If we look at what CSE entarainment does with Camelot Unchained wich i think is the game MJ wanted to make at the time we clearly see how they completly move away from anything WoW related. WoW made bilions of dollar and every major game publisher wanted a MMO like that.
What we got was a faulty uncompleted compromise that took years to sort out. The game ended up being fairly ballanced and really fun by around 2010. By then EA had lost all intreast in making it a WoW clone and devs could finaly make the game wanted.

The majority of the playerbase in this game came from DAoC and the WoW PVP community. DAoC was a oRVR game. WoW PVP and oRVR gameplay is very different. They kinda meet in the middle with scenarios but there's always been turmoil between the oRVR and PVP players in this game. PVP players think oRVR is just an unskilled Zergfest while oRVR players don't see much point in just playing instanced deathmatches without any progression. This game was designed as an oRVR game. Everything points at it. Even small scall pvp instances and pve had an effect on oRVR. But i guess with the original designes gone it kinda opened the field for small scale PVPers to get their voices heard and the new dev team listened. Smaller and smaller groups had bigger impact on oRVR aswell as the instance based PVP rewarded better and better rewards. By the end of the game's life a solo player could have a massive impact on oRVR. And pretty much the entire game was based on 6man melee trains.

The game has changed so drasticly over it's time. And there was always a influx of new players up to about the last 7 or 8 months of it. Everyone have their own first impression of the game and opinions of how they think is the best way to play it. Since so much of the orginal game is gone it's hard to tell what they really aimed for. But i can clearly see racial synnergy even in it's current build that i think was deliberately added to "force" Racial groups. But it never really caught on.And pretty much all of em are oRVR builds.

[footpatrol2]

Here is two reasons why I am so persistent with this idea.

1.I actually did what I'm talking about in a competitive way with a 6 man/12 man/18 man of dwarves and 6 man of high elves for YEARS. Not a little bit. For a extremely LONG time. I faced other premades that I felt were high end at the time on my server. Sometimes we'd win sometimes we'd lose. As it should be. I already know that these racial premades can compete against the majority of premades out there. I don't need convincing since I've experienced it. Apparently my gaming experiences means nothing and the community needs video or it didn't happen. /sigh

If video was shown would you believe it or just state that the players were bad?

I’ve come into contact with one of my old dwarf premade players. This is 3rd party information and I didn’t personally see this which I would have LOVED to see this but he was saying that the destruction premade players were complaining in-game and on the forums about the dwarf groups that we ran on our server because they couldn’t easily kill the dwarf groups. The dwarf group was extremely good at not dying and very robust especially against melee trains. We had a hard time killing people unless they came to us but we could hold a position like a boss. Please also know that the majority of players i had to use were new and had hideous gear. We were facing at the time predominately invader/warlord premades while we the majority of our group was in greens/conq gear.

2. This game is based on Warhammer fantasy battles. In that game its not mixed races fighting each other its same race armies. These same race armies fight in specific ways and have specific strengths. I don't think it’s a stretch to say that Mythic's original design intent had this in mind. In warhammer fantasy battles each army has strengths and weakness. It’s the same for what mythic did with warhammer online.

Now what the playerbase did with it... well thats different then the original design intent.

By the way, by posting all this racial stuff I have gotten in contact with some of my old members that ran those dwarf/HE groups. We are rebuilding the team for 6/12 man premades. So we are in the process of rebuilding this. It takes time to find open minded players to explore this stuff. it also doesn't help that I play on NA time.

[Penril]

Please let me know the name of your guilds (i am assumiing you will have a different guild for each race, am i wrong?).

[footpatrol2]

Currently we are exploring Greenskinz, which is in my sig.

I super super wish I could run multiple guilds but I can't. You have to focus in and get it to work and explore game mechanics. The play styles are not traditional, you play differently then mix groups.

You don't have to be part of the guild to be part of the project. We'll be pulling players from the server as long as they are greenskinz. Hell we'll take non greenskinz also just to have a group running but greenskinz will have priority due to the projects current focus.

@penril
I only started talking about racial warbands because I rode a logic train to try and think what mythic's original design intention was. I've always stated that the racial groups really pick up momentum at the 12 man level and beyond. At 6 man they are slightly weaker then mix 6 man's. But at the 12 man the racial group synergy really starts to shine in my opinion because your stacking strengths instead of mitigating weaknesses. Will they beat all 12 man's no. Just like you can't make a perfect 12 man of mix. Racial groups are also strong at a specific playstyle. They excel at doing certain things. Like with greenskinz/HE I'd pick SC's that have a lot of open terrain or fight in locations in oRvR with open terrain. With dwarves/Chaos you'd pick bottle necks and closed spaces.

@karast
Would you like me to elaborate on your talking points and explain those resist tactic's?

@mursie
Thank you. Much appreciated.