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Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Discuss Black Orc, Squig Herder, Choppa, and Shaman.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#31 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:23 pm

Minerva wrote:I gave you a reason. Your argumentation is wrong. I just didn't say so in plain language.

As for the tactic I wouldn't necessarily use it right now but in T4 it can be a game changer.
The main advantage of this tactic is that it makes the "small heal" actually sustainable for clutch situations, giving your target the time to get away from danger/ get a guard / the casts of the second healer to come through, and then you can go back to AoE/Boon.

The biggest problem for AM's are the cast times, and that tactics takes the edge off a little bit.

There is no solution to overextending/ getting caught, as for reasources with the AP tactic I usually don't have any problems (as an AM ofc). We'll see how it's going to be in T4, tbh I don't remeber plus there are going to be changes implemented, so we just have to wait :)
Sorry if the explanation is a bit crude, I had my wall of text eaten by the logout timer and I had to retype it all again, the previous version was much more coherent :P
Well, Shaman and AM arn't the same...they look the same on paper and have some identical spells and tactics. But the truth is that AM got the best AP management of any healer in the game while Shaman have the worst. At one point in the game Shaman had really good survivabillity with self punt and Run Away. But that just isn't the case anymore and hasn't been for a very long time.

You can compare ADY and Desperation with Blessing of Grugni/Gods. Both are class only tactics that increase healing. Blessing works all the time. It increase healing from other sources aswell as your own and is functional weather the target is on 99% HP or at 1%. This makes this tactic very solid coz it's functional in almoast any situation compared to ADY/Desperation wich only take effect when stuff has allready gone bad. The pay off is 15% more healing but just from yourself. 25% more healing from 2 sources is actually more then ADY/Desperation. And the target doesn't need need be dangerously low for this to take effect. Blessing is a good tactic. ADY is a bad one. A bad one that we slot coz the lack of alternatives.

Imo this tactic should been based on missing HP of the defensive target. If defensive target is on 99% HP you get 1% healing increase. AM and Shaman allready loose the moast from incomming healdebuffs du to their high base heals. While other classes have ways to combat this with absorbs and decent heal increase tactics. AM and Shaman have a tactic that almoast never do anything.
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Minerva
Posts: 104

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#32 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:24 pm

OK I'm going to say this as plain as I can cuz I'm already bored.

Saying "if you do end getting use from it. then you're not getting the work done as a healer" is plain wrong because no matter how L33T you are ppl are going to die, therefoe, you will use it, and it has nothing to do with "ur not betting the wotk done".

As "proof" I say (again, indirectly, my bad) that unless you (the author) can keep up ur teammates alive through the whole SC/RvR skirmish etc, you can't say it's because someone is doing a bad job.
Claiming (later on, no contects before I made my post) that ppl die only due to extending/lack of AP is again, by common sense and expirience invalid.

So can we go back to being friends and keep the discusion on track?
I'd actualy want to hear Robin's opinion about my statement.
But u know, no pressure or anything, im just curios :)
"Behind every successful Man there is a Woman
Healing his a** from the backlines." - Paulo Coelho


Minevra AM -- Minervae RP -- Minervas WL
Some Secret Destro Toons
Tyriss WH -- rr90 -- Karak-Norn RIP

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Minerva
Posts: 104

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#33 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:29 pm

Oh there you are :) Yea I absolutely agree, Shammies and AM are not identical, unfortunately I don't have the heart to play a gobbo :( maybe one day. That's why I mostly talked about AM's.

The % healing on first glance sounds OP, ud have to adjust the base healing amount I guess?
Idk it sounds tricky.
"Behind every successful Man there is a Woman
Healing his a** from the backlines." - Paulo Coelho


Minevra AM -- Minervae RP -- Minervas WL
Some Secret Destro Toons
Tyriss WH -- rr90 -- Karak-Norn RIP

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Gobtar
Posts: 799

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#34 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:38 pm

Minerva wrote:
Gobtar wrote:
This is not an acceptable argument. The burden of proof is on you to support your assertion with supporting facts. If you do not wish to provide a basis for your argument, when the claim is made, then please refrain from doing so.
That's not the argument :)
Oh you mean the strawman?
Minerva wrote: So I'm guessing everytime you're healing none of your teammates die? Ever? Cool.
Please, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. That's even less of an argument. So let me rephrase, if you are going to spout logical fallacies as your basis of your stance, please refrain from doing so. Thanks for expanding on your thought later in the discussion, but this was after Robin attempted to counter your fallacious stance, which is not fair to him.
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Minerva
Posts: 104

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#35 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:46 pm

It is a perfectly logical argument. As stated and explained (in painful detail) above.
Just because u don't like they way it's put doesn't make it wrong.
Cuz it's not.
"Behind every successful Man there is a Woman
Healing his a** from the backlines." - Paulo Coelho


Minevra AM -- Minervae RP -- Minervas WL
Some Secret Destro Toons
Tyriss WH -- rr90 -- Karak-Norn RIP

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#36 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:54 pm

Minerva wrote:The % healing on first glance sounds OP, ud have to adjust the base healing amount I guess?
Idk it sounds tricky.
It might sound OP but if you look at healdebuffs that cut your heals in half and it's not ever totally gonna counter them coz 100% heal increase from the tatic wich is equalent of a 50% healdebuff the target would be dead. Also healdebuffs works on heals from all sources while this tactic only works on heals from you.
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Gobtar
Posts: 799

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#37 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:04 pm

Minerva wrote:It is a perfectly logical argument. As stated and explained (in painful detail) above.
Just because u don't like they way it's put doesn't make it wrong.
Cuz it's not.
Again, I congratulate you on expanding your point, and yes you have valid points, that is not in question. My issue is that you strawmaned him in the initial post. (You are also strawmaning me here.)

Here is how you are strawmanning me
My argument: please don't start arguments with fallacies.
Your arguement: My argument is logical, look at the last couple posts.
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Minerva
Posts: 104

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#38 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:05 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:
Minerva wrote:The % healing on first glance sounds OP, ud have to adjust the base healing amount I guess?
Idk it sounds tricky.
It might sound OP but if you look at healdebuffs that cut your heals in half and it's not ever totally gonna counter them coz 100% heal increase from the tatic wich is equalent of a 50% healdebuff the target would be dead. Also healdebuffs works on heals from all sources while this tactic only works on heals from you.
I see what ur saying, but the way I look at it is: How much more stronger would that make the existing healing?
Like, you would make some heals 50% more effective (100% buff from HP loss with 50% healdebuff, lets ignore that at 100 the target is dead xD) then they are at the moment. So let's say on average 10-20% more healing then they put out now?

BTW I feel like we made this thread super offtopic now so let's post some nice shammie builds and let's get back on track ^^

@Gobtar OK I see what U mean now, english is not my 1st language so this explanation was actually pretty helpfull.
I will try to refrain but I will prob fail in some near future cuz im a troll by nature. Sorry in advance
"Behind every successful Man there is a Woman
Healing his a** from the backlines." - Paulo Coelho


Minevra AM -- Minervae RP -- Minervas WL
Some Secret Destro Toons
Tyriss WH -- rr90 -- Karak-Norn RIP

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Gobtar
Posts: 799

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#39 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:21 pm

Minerva wrote: @Gobtar OK I see what U mean now, english is not my 1st language so this explanation was actually pretty helpfull.
Fallacies r fun and they engage thinking so i dont see whats so bad about them. I will try to refrain but I will prob fail in some near future cuz im a troll by nature. Sorry in advance
No worries, honestly, I have a feeling the balance discussion moderators will be a lot more severe when tier 4 opens up, and fallacies will be a good way to get banned from those discussions. Glad it all worked out :mrgreen:

I have a question concerning Shrug it Off. I know on live, I had it never go off sometimes, and other times it will very much go off. Is there a reason why it wont go off besides having the target go immediately from +21% to 0?
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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Shaman builds, RR, etc.

Post#40 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:33 pm

Gobtar wrote:
No worries, honestly, I have a feeling the balance discussion moderators will be a lot more severe when tier 4 opens up
Oh yes... :twisted:

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