(Mythic) origins of balance

[footpatrol2]

A lot of these racial groups synergy have been gutted by mythic trying to keep subscribers because they actually listened too them which was this games undoing. At the time I was screaming on the forums that they shouldn't. I was running racial grps at the time and knew they were screwing with synergy which i was trying to figure out. At the time I was stuck in a 6 man mindset. I was in protest because I wanted to figure out the balance and play the game for what it was designed to do. I knew the game was released early but I also knew once they started screwing around with the morale's and making BG's similar to IB's, dramatically changing them they were changing the fundamentals of the game. People saw it as mirror's they still talk about it like that ingame. BG's are the perfect tank to fight a HE warband due to his absorbs. Remeber... he was suppose to be the magic defense tank...

Mythic is about money and they measure subscribers as success. They don't really care how you play their game as long as you keep subscribing. Why should they tell you? They kinda can't tell you how to play if your paying.

DoK m4 thousand eye's was 30 sec which provided a large resists buff arguably better then what chosen's provide. You could have cycle'd it. DE/Empire are straight up nasty in keep offense. Once your at a keep you just throw a knife at a door and your gaining morale. You could just go in the lakes and gain morale. You could have waited for a scrub to attack you and gain morale. Which by the way if your fighting HE's which were DE's hard counter you shouldn't have your resists up at the beginning. Look at it like this. In a game purely built around m4 bombs are you willing to risk taking a chosen for a 5% drop in morale gain due to the racial tactic? Thats MASSIVE. Once DE were able to get to their M4 thousand eye's Which by the way HE had to defeat them before they could otherwise the HE warband is just a pain in the ass for DE warband.

Look dwarves also lost mountain spirit which was 30 sec's which you could have cycle'd it. This was there to help assist your dwarves get to the keep Along with your armor tactic. In a Game were t4 is suppose to be about m4 bombs. Spending a mountain spirit on a key damage component is a BIG DEAL. Its decreasing your m4 bomb which acts as your offensive/defensive threat. Which is why it was so good. Mountain spirit was there to help the dwarves survive the greenskinz warband so they could actually get to the keep unassisted. It would be tough but they could. The greenskinz warband Had to defeat the dwarf warband before they had their m4 bomb. This is Why greenskinz can WAaaaagh and gain their morale faster. Look at this. I bet da green path was way more important for a greenskinz warband in a m4 bomb meta. Why? You have your orc bash teams described earlier in this thread WAY back. You keep WAAaaaghing the dwarf warband meaning m4 bomb them. You could straight instant re rez them back up. Remeber dwarves and chaos can build a retarded high m4 bomb damage. Like 35k+ m4 bomb.

Tzeetch's talon was 30 sec's which you could have easily cycled it. If you have a TON of zealots in your keep due to a massive m4 bomb they provide and you didn't think you needed to cycle your bombs because the threat wasn't so big you could toss out tzeentch's talon's from zealots from the ramparts to assist in single target marauders guarded by chosen's killing of players to ruin the oppositions m4 bombs on you. Using Tzeentch's Talon was a BIG DEAL because your decreasing your m4 morale bomb.

I forget exactly but the IB is part of the damage component on the dwarve m4 bomb (path of Vengance). One of his earlier morale's was boss good. I forget its name. I think it was his m3 gromril plating 7200 absorb for the entire group now just to IB. It was Boss Good because its a BIG DEAL to use one of those morale's because your decreasing your m4 morale bomb. You could pop 1 Gromril plating per group to mitigate either the AoE pressure DE's. I bet the gromril plating was used to mitigate WE m4 Bombs they would put on you. You can't stop the morale damage but WE can't spend their dmg from thier ap on the dwarves immediately and assist thier morale damage. You'd have to be HEALING like mad to survive the WE assault. If you knew you were facing a DE warband vs a keep assault your dwarf warband would have too start constantly healing because of the threat. Note a dwarf WB is probably taking A lot of Runpriests specifically ones with grimnir's fury to immediately get back up and start regaining morale. You can't afford a long rez cycle. Remember Dwarves and chaos are the best at having m4 bombs and the best at keep defense.

Look at the empire racial tactics... When your doing a keep assault since your facing a chaos warband in a keep and Your the BEST at assault. You could switch out tactics as a warband to unwavering faith spirit resists to mitigate Chaos's passive damage. If a Empire warband was trying to get to the keep unassisted you could swap as a warband too emperor's ward or sigmars fury. I bet you could swap out 2 tactics to really punk Chaos. take the absorb and spirit resists. Not sure which ones are best yet.

As a chaos warband since your Best at keep defense and your taking a ton of zealots. The Monstrocity Marauder's would probably run out of the keep defended by chosen and peel away m4 bombs with his morale decreasers. No wait... you want a rift magus pulling players with 2 monstrocity marauders outside the keep probably defended by chosen. Rift AoE knockdown Mass AoE morale drain. I don't even care about doing damage really. I don't want you to have a full m4 bomb to hit me with. Dwarves were about outlasting chaos was about stripping away your m4 bombs and straight eating players and literally keep you out of the keep. How does chaos literally keep you out? Get 4 dark rights zealots each at the edge of the keep door. Use the seemingly useless ability which is absolutely perfect and CRAZY amazing at keeping players out. Winds of insanity. Cycle them there is only a 2 sec down time if you have 4. have each sit on the side of the door. Left side pops winds. When over Right side pops winds and the left side zealot moves for the next zealot to get into place. You can constantly have it up. There are no immunity timers attached ON PURPOSE. At a glance chaos has a decent morale bomb but not nearly as good as dwarves. But really does it have to be? Your keeping the opposition from doing a coordinated m4 bomb. I don't think dwarves can do that. BECAUSE T4 was based on m4 bombs. All you need is a little morale drain to mitigate a coordinated m4 bomb. So its staggered and not one go. God the synergy of this stuff is disgusting. Look at the abilities of the monstrosity marauder. He can put out a AoE disorient. Why? He's screwing with WP and BW. I don't think DE and Empire can kick out a dwarf or Chaos warband in a keep. It would be extremely tough. They have so so so many tricks its disgusting the synergy again is overwhelming. All you have to do as a Chaos or Dwarf warband to keep out assassin teams is place a mist or napalm on the back door inside and casually throw out AoE. I mean your constantly doing stuff at a keep defense as a dwarf or chaos warband. These tricks are dirty. Why not have your magus and Engie throw out AoE stagger bombs around the keep for fun to try and knock out assassin teams entering the keep. Build Slayers or Maraurders for single target damage and kill the WE and WH. So many tricks. SOOO MANY TRICKS. I bet... sigh certain keeps get more complex and they do as the game increases tier...

Why oh why did we not see this stuff. I didn't even see this stuff and I've been looking for years. The m4 for the rift magus is really just there to let the other players know... ya i'm a chaos warband in a keep. I'm SOOO comfortable being here that I'll just pop this for fun.

Here's a super sad one. HE warband had access too m3 AoE silence from their WL pet. This is a natural counter to DE warband and a natural counter to the current meta going on... You could pump up a WL with morale gain by having 10+ am's in your warband sloted for morale boosters to get multiple WL to m3 probably WAY before the DE warband has time to respond to defend against it. DE warband is Terrified of the WL pet due to the threat. They have to kill ALL THE WL's pets for at least until t4 morale gain is established from thousand eye's. Even then You can't take the chance of a lion getting to you. Here is how you get the lion to the DE warband... You guard the pet. You can Actually Guard the pets. Very creative mythic unique and cool. The HE warband would have a Bunch of WL's in it. You just keep summoning WL pets and throw it at the heart of DE warband Which in the current meta is a Sorc bomb grp DE style but maybe there could be a different style I dunno. As a HE warband leader I can fake out the DE warband if I wanted too. The DE warband is TERRORFIED of the WL pet. He doesn't know if the WL has his m3 and got boosted by boon of hysh booster. You can build a HE WB to specifically destroy a DE warband. Look... sigh... you can even make your pet tanky... and if he has a guard... Its likely to get in. I could have 4 WL pets sent in at once guard the tanky pet but don't follow and the off spec WL pets would get easily destroyed but the tank pet lives. I won't even give my position away to the WL pet Because I'll wings of heaven in a SM Right before he gets there... OH MY GOD so so so sad. Order got rid of their natural counter too the current meta because hey why should a pet have a AoE silence. Jesus this is almost cry worthy. Greenskinz still have their Natural counter to BW. Send in Da Toughest orc spamming can't hit me. Then pop your m3 Deafening Bellow morale. I bet as a Warband of greenskinz you could feed da toughest orc AP by spamming gork'l fix it with look'it wat I did tactic from the shaman. You'll have at least 10 shamans in a ork warband. Oh man.

Look as a HE or greenskinz warband All I have to do is keep you snared. I bet at the release of this game there really wasn't any rez sickness. So instant rezing was a lot more powerful. As a highly organized HE/Greenskinz warband That prides itself at owning the lakes. I could just keep enough players in the warband on, to keep whatever snared And start logging off other players. OR I'll just start my warbands as pure shamans and pure AM's. Just with those I have enough to slow you down and AoE knock you back. Remeber no immunities at release. I'll log on spec specific stuff to deal with you. Once your in the lakes your playstyle is dictated the game is on.

I dunno what else to say guys. This stuff is horribly depressing. Mythic completely delivered like I thought they did. They gave us the BEST PVP GAME EVER MADE.

The original devs are probably crying also. Jesus this is a sad story.

Your right guys don't read this thread. Its just depressing.

I finally figured out the balance in this game. The puzzle is unlocked. I'm not happy about it. I thought I would be. Look at the sheer coordination that this game would have required. God mythic did a good job.

Plus I got to deal with you naysayers. Why even try? Can't anyone be positive. As I wrote this I was discovering it. Through the lense of racial warbands not traditionally built to the current meta at all. This game didn't even have immunity timers. Because it probably shouldn't of maybe small quick immunity timers. Because it was suppose to be horrendously brutal. AoE stagger me and try and BW down me in t4? m4 AoE bomb.

Anyone want to still naysay?

Sorry for posting so much before. I should have edited like other players told me too.

Well now we know how this game was designed...

I told you i'd break the meta.

Want to see a nasty HE 12 man?

Here we go. Iron hard 12 man High elf grp or at least the first version of it.

It doesn't have a amazing morale bomb but it could be fun.

4 path of Hoeth swordmasters. All whisper cycle in each group.
2 Path of Khaine Swordmasters. To max stat steal take phoenix wing. I don't really care about the buff's I care more about debuffing.
2 Isha Am's with morale booster.
1 Dps AM's with morale booster
1 path of Hunter WL
2 Vaul Am's with morale booster

Look at what we have here. This is brutal. I have 6 tanks and 5 am's 1 WL.

I have access to
5 Placable AoE snare's
6 morale 2 SM AoE snare's
3 instant rez's.
1 ranged heal debuff
1 ranged AoE knockback
2 ranged single target silences
2 Characters running at heavy stat steal for fully debuffed when in combat with great appliers.

The playstyle is kite and strike.

Defensive mode. Start with AM's and WL guarded. Toss out snares. If the opposition is dumb enough to get in my snares. Awesome. Your debuffed to my damage type. You have options
You can engage at Range or sit back and gain morale and keep them snared.

Strike mode.
Switch guards off the AM's and onto the WL pet. Either no guard used on khaine or guard another SM.
All SM's are attacking the opposition within the AM's snares. Which you will be trying to constantly cycle.
Start Hoeth whisper wind cycle.
AoE mode
Vaul AM's spam energy of vaul and use boon of hysh on a target potentially the WL spec'd into tooth and claw or 2 hoeth SM's. This really depends on how much melee your facing. If your facing lots of melee 2 hoeth SM's. If not WL. If one of my AM's are in trouble no problem Since I knew I was facing Heavy melee I pre boosted at least 2 SM for wings. I'll only bring back what I need. It will probably be 2 of the hoeth SM's boosted. Wings back to Am switch guard.

Note: WL can use lion's fury which is spirit damage. Its his hardest hitting ability. And its spammable due to double whisper. Hitting on targets with basically zero spirit resistance.

Note: Tooth and Claw used to do 1200 from pet and WL m4 morale damage total 2400. Take 4 of them for a 9.6k bomb in a warband. I don't know if the tooltip is correct but whatever.

For HE warbands the main sorce of m4 bombs are tied to their WL.

Depending on if your enemy is in your snares which they should be. You can either walk up or Pounce in. Pounce used to cost a lot of ap and did AoE damage.

I bet as a warband of HE you can push a bunch of ap into your hunter WL to constantly keep up his spinning AoE attack with your 10+ AM's.

I don't even have to chase you down. But lets say I don’t want to engage you yet. I dictate the movement portion of the fight. You don’t have enough snares to get me. I’ll pick fight locations that benefit me to my playstyle.

Look at it from a different angle. I can keep a constant racial warband. You have to build specifically to beat me. I'll just switch tactic slots or log on different same race greenskins to adapt to your playstyle. Maybe you guys are not seeing the sheer amount of synergy I have stacked on my side. How does the mix grp have my flexability? You'd have to get players to lvl all 12 classes to max level to get my flexability. I only require players to get to 2 to 4 and focus in. I have m4 bombs that are nasty. I'm kinda just talking in the lakes. I mean Sc's are ok ish. I'll pick SC's that benefit to my playstyle. But I'll dominate in the lakes. Look I'm not saying you won't beat me. Sure. I'll just quickly adapt my playstyle semi on the fly. Now your going to have to build an entire new warband to beat my new build. I'll use the same existing players log off what I need bring in What I need. If I REALLY need to which I probably don't even need to toss out a few respec's and I'm ready to go again. I dunno probably at worst 15 min? I'll have a counter. Can your mix group counter me that fast? I'm focusing in.

If we are fighting in the lakes or you wiped me. I'll send out something thats fast and can snare and try and grab someone thats not part of your premade and get him to chase me on purpose. Its the lakes. People like to follow organized stuff. I'll start letting him attack my warband thats sitting outside of the warcamp. He thinks he's cool because I'm not really attacking. I'm building morale. I mean there are tricks man. I'll have my warband sit in a keep and bait someone not in your control to shoot the door. Entire warband starts gaining morale. I'm pretty sure it still works that way? I'll have scouts sitting around your warcamp or sitting in all the lakes. My main WB will stay away from the from your warcamp. Break away from thinkin on head on collisions. Fight me in open terrain I'll surround you. Start using knockbacks either individual knockbacks or aoe knockbacks. I won't hit your whole grp I'll hit the middle if your bunched. Snare where they land. I'll use single target knock backs to knock you in opposite directions snaring. I control movement. There is set up with rift. I'll know my counters and respond.

I can swarm and bring like 12 Squig herders knock back your squishies from thier guard AoE snare Guard Burn squishies and run away. Do it super quick. Now your in a rez cycle. But I'm just toying. I have access to 10 snares not breathing hard. I'll use corners to try and get you to chase me. If open terrain i'll play different. If your bunched up and I want to separate you I'll use gedoff in the middle of your group snare where they land snare opposition. Then just run away. If you have rifters I'll keep them away. I'm definately not saying you can't beat me. I'll win some and lose some. You can build to beat me. Start thinking outside of the box. Think of it this way... I have 9 different pure spec lines i'm throwing at you and hundreds of combinations. I got a ton of tricks. That I don't even know yet. Can a guarded AM handle 12 squig herders with lots of arrows be thrown at it? I don't even know. Completely new territory for me. You have 3 sec's to respond to lots of arrer's and i'm running away again I'll try and get you to chase me on purpose. Even premades make mistakes in movement. When they do I'll snare. I'll focus in on this playstyle and probably get dumb good at it. I'll use corners to my advantage. Again I'm playing to my advantage.

[Sulorie]

Props to you for your enthusiasm and effort but I see no point for further discussions. You write too much, while repeating yourself. Countering your statements would take too much time and as someone else mentioned only leads to additional wall of text.
Not Mythic broke racial warband but the playerbase did. I started 1 year after release and they didn't exist anymore, while the racial moral gain tactics were still available.

[Razid1987]

Holy f***. 4 THOUSAND words. 5 full pages in Word with size 10. Too much. WAY too much.

I've wanted to comment of these enormous posts of yours before (The size of them, not the actual content), but thought I wouldn't do it, because it would be derailing and/or disrespectful. But now you just went all the way to the absurd. No one in their right mind is gonna read all that, let alone respond to it.

That's just crazy...

Sorry for posting so much before. I should have edited like other players told me too.

"Before"? What do you mean "before"?!? You just set a whole new record.

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

[footpatrol2]

Look i'll make it short and sweet to make my point if you don't want to read my massive text wall of discovery.

I'm a greenskins/High elf guild warband. I pride myself and my guild on owning the lakes. I'm extremely adaptable. I have tactic slot switches to benefit for me in dominating the lakes. I have m4 Bombs I'm throwing at you. I'll log off players and bring in new to quickly to adapt to your playstyle. This ain't a SC with one shot premades. This is the Lakes. Your mix group only has a certain amount of time in my lakes before I adapt on the fly perfectly in kicking you out of the lakes. You don't have my tactical flexability with mix.

Same can be said with DE/Empire in assault of keeps.
Same can be said with Dwarves/Chaos in keep defense.

Get out of perfectly designed one shot groups. This is super mean and adaptable. This is the Lakes. This is Rvr.

[footpatrol2]

Look both HE/Greenskinz warbands can do kite and strike tactics.

You can still cycle either entire warband toughness m2 10% parry and dodge m1. With 2 bo's per group if I wanted too or just with my orc bash teams. Maybe it takes me 30 sec's to even get to m4. So I'm not really wasting anything. The m3 from SM's is PERFECT for the Kite portion of tactics.

I could have a 6 man group of SH grp for range support. Pop your m3 squigbeast for some real pain. This synergy is unreal.

Here's the deal. Your not wiping my warband with instant rez's. I really don't care about rez sickness. I'm the BEST kiter in the game. I'll rip apart stragglers. I'm not about head on collisions at all. I'm about picking you apart. I could do head on collisions if I wanted too. My job is to keep you from doing a coordinated attack on a keep or allowing you to get into a keep fully intact. I'll make it your worst nightmare. I'll make it so incredibly painful to go anywhere in the lakes. I'll kill all stragglers to your group. Do you really not see what I'm talking about here guys? Look lets say you get half your warband to the keep. You think I'll let the other half get there? You think I'll let a rezer get on the ramparts? I control the lakes I'm designed to do this. I'll hit you with 4 groups of goblins all slotted with run away tactics from different directions All with single target and AoE knockbacks Snaring everything. I'll completely tear you apart if I wanted too. You think if anything comes out on the ramparts I won't just snipe you down.

You damn right I'm placing down standards. I put a hell of a lot of time to get this amount of coordination and organization. I'll place them a little bit away from your warcamp and BEG for you to come out. The standards will be slotted NOT to mitigate my weaknesses like the current meta but to Push further my strengths.

I don't really care about fluff. This stuff is hideously dirty and it was designed to do this.

Look at this amazing gem we have on our hands.

Take a step back and assume I'm correct and not a idiot.

Look at all the builds we could do. Isn't what I'm saying just a little bit cool? Don't you think mythic thought this also? If you were going to design a game about RVR that the playerbase was trying to shove down your throat that they wanted. Wouldn't you start thinking on a game that was based around what I'm talking about? This game Literally had the potential to utterly CRUSH wow in pvp and to be honest it still does. Didn't you think that racial warbands when you first got the game was cool? But then you were told no you can't do it.NO The so called elite players were wrong and they still are wrong.

I bet the morales when used how I was describing earlier Look Out of this world cool when coordinated. And your completely rewarded for the coordination with Doing something CRAZY and the animations are NUTS.

This game goes SO SO SO much further. The playerbase messed it up by not seeing the power of m4 bombs and Maybe we can fix it. Look I don't have a ego since I've been beat down over the years by naysayers on this stuff. Hell most of the players in this game can't even guard a target correctly i dunno. Mythic expected a lot out of us and we didn't deliver.

Again I'm playing to my advantages and not trying to mitigate my weakness's. This game is the BEST pvp game out there on the market... which isn't even on the market. I tried to talk to some so called good players online but they can't get past their elite 6 man mindset. This is straight up next level stuff.

Hopefully I'm getting the attention of some key people. Again sorry for the 5 page rant last night. I literally was discovering this stuff.

[roadkillrobin]

The SM, Kotb, SW, RP bombing didn't really show up until BW bombing got nerfed.(CQ moastly) And not even then did many people run it. People were still stuck with KN KN BW BW WP WP groups for the moast part. SM and Engies didn't even had a spot in moast WB until KN aura debuff got halved.
All i'm trying to say is that there's still alot of stuff thats not really been tried.
People tend to just repeat the same old stuff someone else told em way back, and if somone doesn't agree with them they are clueless noobs just for trying something different. The community of this game has always been like this. Really ignorant and unsupportive. I dunno why.
I mean did the 5-7% dmg loss from KOTB Auras really made that big difference that guilds had to rethink their compositions and add SM instead. Probobly not.
When WP/DoK's healing change happened RP/Zealot became much more viable in bombgroups. It was pretty much manditory tbh coz if someone got healdebuffed 2 WP couldn't keep em up.
This is why I laugh a bit when i still see some guilds on here still running 2 WP/DoK thinkin it's the optimal setup for Bomb wb

[footpatrol2]

Challenge...

Point to a ability that you think is worthless. Dig up the patch notes from its original design. I'll tell you what it was for with this viewpoint and mindset.

The elitist community is toxic in most games. Too many ego's.

I have a design type job. My job is to figure out what can be done. If I listened to people keep saying that it can't be done I wouldn't have a job.

I'm a 12 man premade organizer that started trying to think outside of the box years ago and was dabbling in premade 18 man's. I've been smashed down for years by this but I couldn't deny all the synergy. I had to keep going and figure it out. Out of all the players that respond to my posts. How many of them have been doing 18 man premades vs others? What percentage of the population am I? If you ever have done 12 vs 12 and everyone is good, You'll notice you basically can't kill anyone. Why... by design. You needed M4 bombs to do it.If your taking advice from others do they have my type of experience? Look at all the racial M4 bombs just in a warband setting. I mean this game was massive when it started. Think of two DE guild warbands trying to compete with each other for who is better at taking keeps.

Dig up the patch notes. Figure out when mythic was dramatically losing subscribers. Look at the changes. Mythic did a really good job listening to its players and trying to respond correctly.

If you buy a sandwhich from me and I'm a sandwhich maker. Can I tell you how to eat that sandwich? No I cannot. I just want you to keep coming back and keep eating the sandwhiches I sell. Its my fault as the sandwhich maker if you don't keep coming back. I have to respond to get you back.

[footpatrol2]

Sorry for the long posts guys. I just thought this might be interesting to you.

Apparently some of the content is too much. Should I keep going?

[footpatrol2]

Lets get into the meta a little of M4 bombs.

These guilds would be pure race guilds. They would have 24 players playing. As a guild leader or organizer you'd want everyone in your guild to have one of each class so you can play and specialize in specific ways to do things. You would heavy tax your guild members to pay for mass respec's and standards for guild events.

Note: Have you ever been part of a keep assault and you had a lot of BW/Sorc's and the door just goes down really fast?... By design. BW/Sorc's are not OP they were designed to do this. There are natural counters because coordinated racial warband morale pushes were suppose to be important. Empire Guild that has heavy support from HE guild brings 24 BW to knock the door down fast. You can't do that without the support of HE guild. Because if greenskins warband will tear you apart. Hyper competitive guilds could have Multiple BW characters to not waste time with respec's. You'd have to be in constant communication with the HE guild. sigh ... which you could do in the t1 t2 t3 t4 channels. God I don't know if I like being this correct.

I bet it was really easy to get into the city with this type of mindset. Remeber mythic had to keep making it easier and easier to get into the city's? I think it was like 6 months after the release and their still wasn't a city siege. They were hoping we would find the synergies. They were hesitant to change things.

The entire guild logs off to a different build that they want to play on different characters. Want me to create a dwarf bomb group thats probably nasty as hell? Or a chaos one? Anyone want some more convincing?

Could you respec at the keeps when in combat? or only when not? At release?

[footpatrol2]

Look give me a greenskinz warband vs a mixed group warband.

Try and take a keep or Get to one?

I'll deny you all day long to getting to your city pushes and I'll have a scream doing it. I'll log on tanks to cycle heal the door.

Anyone want to counter this one?