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Why so tediuos?

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Razid1987
Posts: 1295

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#31 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:26 am

Shibirian wrote:
Razid1987 wrote:I've said it before, and I'll say it again: MMORPGs are not for casual players.
I think a couple of millions of mmorpg players would disagree with you on this.

I could stop playing the game for a week and just continue from where I left off... does that make me casual?

Hardcore players just get the best stuff sooner than me. And they have tons of gold. I can live with that.
Sure. MMOs has changed over the years to be more softcore and casual. I would argue that's a really bad thing, though. What I was talking about was the original idea for MMOs: Everquest, Lineage, DaoC, Ultima Online. None of these games were softcore, and neither was WoW for the first at least 3 years (Maybe even 5, if you include TBC).

Well, not specifically. Depends, like everything else.

Cool. Then I don't see a problem.

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Shibirian
Posts: 107

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#32 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:30 am

Razid1987 wrote:Items don't mean as much here, compared to other MMOs, such as WoW.
Not exactly true. With t4 (at latest) you get a full set-bonus that is a game changer for your class. Invader and Warlord suddenly offer a ton of different options.
The question here is simply if you know how to use it or not.

Regarding the first MMOs, these were heavily experimental in nature, because it was a completely new kind of game. So, naturally, they were really not streamlined for a broader audience. I think its actually good that that has changed over the years.
"I am Grace, too. But roll a healer if you need healing..." - Tudik (WP@SC)

"I've heard it reported but do not know how to reproduce." - Azarael

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Scrilian
Posts: 1570

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#33 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:26 am

Spoiler:
Idrinth wrote:WoW is obviously focussed on PvP :P
I do agree with Renown Ranks taking a long time, but I would highly disagree with a huge powergap - so handing out purples easily makes sense to me.
The reason for this is simple: don't drive away new chars and keep fights more interesting. I would propose tiny changes only for each new set of items, so that a theoretical RR100 set would only be a bit more powerful (in terms of stats) than a basic RR30 set - maybe 1% more power per set, making RR100 only ~6% more powerful.
Interesting things would be granted abilities per set, that are mostly equal in power, but different in terms of effect.
So you are basically saying is that dedicated player should get rewarded less in terms of power gap for his/her time and effort just to keep fights "more interesting"?
How it will keep more or less committed players, when they don't see how great and powerful the rewards of sticking to the game are?

The game will hemorrhage all of its hardcore scene in mere months when you start to give away purples for everyone with a press of a LFG button or AFK-ing during the city siege.
I know this is the trigger, but no one will be sticking around for a year for a miserable 6% power gain.
People come to experience the deserved unequality here, to minmax unequal classes, to have a 6v100scrubs and win for the time and effort they put in, with the game gladly providing the opportunity to do so.

Heck, the game should even have you in some cases 3shot casuals if the only counter play is to put as much time in the game as the guy who did it. Shocker, right? :mrgreen:
I strongly believe that I'm not the only one here who cherishes this approach to the MMOs in general and I whole-heartily agree with Razid post.
Why should it change? If one finds this tedious or unfair - maybe its not the game for them.
Вальтер Рыжий RU => Gaziraga BW, Valefar WL, Lovejoy
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Shibirian
Posts: 107

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#34 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:41 am

Scrilian wrote:So you are basically saying is that dedicated player should get rewarded less in terms of power gap for his/her time and effort just to keep fights "more interesting"?
The power gap that once arose ruined the game on live, remember?

Or to put it like that, what you are basically saying is, that when one player played the game more often than the others he should be able to steam-waltz the other players not because of SKILL but because of GEAR(power).

The dedicated player is already rewarded, because he/she got more stuff/gold/skill than all the others have.

Again, what you are saying is that when a player just grinded long enough skill shouldn't be important, because of the gear making up for that. This here is a RvR/PvP game. Skill and teamplay and knowing what you do is more important.
Scrilian wrote:People come to experience the deserved unequality here
Really...
Scrilian wrote:to minmax unequal classes,
Yes, but of course. :lol:
"I am Grace, too. But roll a healer if you need healing..." - Tudik (WP@SC)

"I've heard it reported but do not know how to reproduce." - Azarael

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Scrilian
Posts: 1570

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#35 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:51 am

Shibirian wrote: The power gap that once arose ruined the game on live, remember?
I didn't play past 80+, but from what I've gathered the gap was like x10 of what it was.
Shibirian wrote: Or to put it like that, what you are basically saying is, that when one player played the game more often than the others he should be able to steam-waltz the other players not because of SKILL but because of GEAR(power).
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. There is skill in getting the gear, another shocker.
Spoiler:
Image
Shibirian wrote: The dedicated player is already rewarded, because he/she got more stuff/gold/skill than all the others have.

Again, what you are saying is that when a player just grinded long enough skill shouldn't be important, because of the gear making up for that. This here is a RvR/PvP game. Skill and teamplay and knowing what you do is more important.
Skill and teamplay is overrated, committing to gearing up yourself and your buddies in an RPG somehow is overlooked in the recent MMOs.
Вальтер Рыжий RU => Gaziraga BW, Valefar WL, Lovejoy
Retired
ex-Greenfire/Invasion RvR leader
Wonderful RvR music videos ;)

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Razid1987
Posts: 1295

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#36 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:58 am

Shibirian wrote:
Razid1987 wrote:Items don't mean as much here, compared to other MMOs, such as WoW.
Not exactly true. With t4 (at latest) you get a full set-bonus that is a game changer for your class. Invader and Warlord suddenly offer a ton of different options.
The question here is simply if you know how to use it or not.
The difference between Conquer and Invader was minimal. The difference between Invader and Warlord was minimal. The only big difference was Sovereign. And that was the original end-set. It SHOULD be powerful.

Any items beyond RR80 would be silly to even mention, since no one liked them, and they are not even going to be implemented here. But yeah, there were difference builds and combinations, sure. So what? It's not like you suddenly could pull 800 int/str/bs out of your ass, because of a few extra RRs.
Shibirian wrote:Regarding the first MMOs, these were heavily experimental in nature, because it was a completely new kind of game. So, naturally, they were really not streamlined for a broader audience. I think its actually good that that has changed over the years.
Broader audience = Casuals who want everything served on a silver plate, within 5 mins of logging in? No thanks.

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Shibirian
Posts: 107

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#37 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:01 pm

Scrilian wrote:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. There is skill in getting the gear, another shocker.
Interestingly enough thats the very same cartoon I thought about. (A classic.)
So you're really thinking this is okay? Sorry, can't agree. Gear should rather open up new tactic/strategic options for your build; which is the advantage out of all of them. Not make you undefeatable.
Scrilian wrote:Skill and teamplay is overrated,
An premade Warband will be waltzing over almost every other Warband. Especially when its coordinated over TS3 by a warband leader. I speak from experience here. We had three warbands organized like that in T4. The randoms didn't stood a chance.
"I am Grace, too. But roll a healer if you need healing..." - Tudik (WP@SC)

"I've heard it reported but do not know how to reproduce." - Azarael

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Euan
Posts: 416

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#38 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:06 pm

Grinding makes you hardcore? Lol
Is this a shitpost? Let me know through personal message.

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Shibirian
Posts: 107

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#39 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:11 pm

Razid1987 wrote:The only big difference was Sovereign. And that was the original end-set. It SHOULD be powerful.
No. The original end-set was Warlord. They added sovereign as they rose the cap to RR80. They catered to the grinders (with handing them T4,5 gear) and that was already the foreshadowing of the beginning of the end.
Razid1987 wrote:Broader audience = Casuals who want everything served on a silver plate, within 5 mins of logging in? No thanks.
That one made me giggle.

Now that I think about it, RR leachers who got their hands on SOV, too, come to mind. They probably deserved that power too, right?

No, really, to me WAR should be all about; building your own class variation and be good with it. That's it, and it is already all too much for the majority of grinders, who even with RR80 had no idea about what to do when they were in a warband and suddenly had to follow some orders... and we kicked a couple of these types from our guilds in live.
"I am Grace, too. But roll a healer if you need healing..." - Tudik (WP@SC)

"I've heard it reported but do not know how to reproduce." - Azarael

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Scrilian
Posts: 1570

Re: Why so tediuos?

Post#40 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:12 pm

Shibirian wrote: So you're really thinking this is okay? Sorry, can't agree. Gear should rather open up new tactic/strategic options for your build; which is the advantage out of all of them. Not make you undefeatable.
If you can't commit yourself to the gearing up in an RPG to make you undefeatable and think that some inbound the "skill" should and will carry you through - maybe FPS is the way to look, where there is no gear so to speak.
Lessening the gear gap just makes commitment null and void, so the casuals can have their assess handed to them less often. Why should it change?
Shibirian wrote: An premade Warband will be waltzing over almost every other Warband. Especially when its coordinated over TS3 by a warband leader. I speak from experience here. We had three warbands organized like that in T4. The randoms didn't stood a chance.
I don't see your point here about the gear, sorry, aside of let the voice and coordination beat everyone. :(
Вальтер Рыжий RU => Gaziraga BW, Valefar WL, Lovejoy
Retired
ex-Greenfire/Invasion RvR leader
Wonderful RvR music videos ;)

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