Gobtar wrote:
Okay you have some major problems with your arguement; Bandwagoning, and Changing the goalposts are a couple. Never did I say that the BG is solely a CC bot, but in this current meta, with Mara a plenty, the redundancy means certain tools get out shined.
bloodi wrote:
Oh yeah you never did say that, oh wait:
Gobtar wrote:. As soon as you throw a mara into the mix, you are basically a glorified CC/guard bot.
It's why i qualified it. The Malice Tree strengths are largely irrelevant when you have a mara or two or 4. On no uncertain terms does that mean all the time, I am sure I have spent the last 2 pages defending my stance, and even in my defense did not change my stance on how marauders effect a BGs synergy.
Gobtar wrote:You can make a RPs life hell...but as said time and time again, if you want to catch said RP you need to be on top of him before the battle line gets to him
bloodi wrote:
Or you could superpunt their healing targets so he has to come to you but lets forget about that since it makes your argument pointless right?
Right... this is a good point, but irrelevant to my arguement because the battle lines will either shift to chase after "unguarded target" or it wont due to the target being dead from leaving guard range or something to that effect or not wanting to bring the battle line to your healers. The punted target will be the one to return to the front, not the RP chasing afterwards. If the battle line does change and the BG is now in the new "back lines" well that means he is no where near his guard...now does it?
Gobtar wrote:Iron Breakers make Zealots cry, except they also do much more than have this one quality.
bloodi wrote:
Iron breakers are cleansable by zealots, they just affect doks, they are also unable to ap drain them, just healdebuff them. So they dont even have that quality.
Yeah i edited myself shortly after i posted, now Doks can't be AP drained, but the flipside is, it's much easier to apply a punishing knock to a dok then a mind killer to a RP, I am sure I can omit my reasoning why.
Gobtar wrote:The CC i do have, I like, but I know its weaknesses, in a combat where a second or two means life and death, you can't afford to wait for your block to come up. When playing defensive, I would rather have consistent CC than not. The BGs CC is most reliable when guarding MDPS and thus in a melee train.
bloodi wrote:
For someone who claims to be all about 6vs6 and 12vs12 and thinks all about that, you seem to lack the basic knowledge about how a 6 man group works, TTK is often talked about not because people dies 3 seconds after the fight starts, its because people dies in 3 seconds when the window to do so pops up, when talking about the BG, such window is usually when the BG tells his group he know can KD.
Hell, you seem to be mixing fights within competitive groups and a premade fighting pugs for how you talk, no fight is decided on the first 5 seconds or 20 when two good groups collide.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive...and even at 100% hate in the middle of a fight, you can be completely unable to use your CC on that WH that just popped on your Zealot/Sorc because you just don't get a block. This IS mitgated by the block channel...something I posted as a means to combat that, but there is no doubt that the BG KD is the hardest KD to use effectively...the first 15 seconds of a fight can determine alot, no one has immunities, most buffs aren't rolling, no morale, slayers choppa arent ragey...this all factors into what a BG can contribute on a team, it
Gobtar wrote:You said that building a group around a BG would make it the greatest thing ever, how far do you have to compromise your groups viability to make the BG shine?
bloodi wrote:
Not very far and surely not far enough to not be compensated by what he brings even if you like to claim otherwise.
I haven't claimed the BG doesn't have good tools, I am saying these tools are pale in comparison to what other classes can bring, many of these tools are made obsolete by arguably the best MDPS for destro. you get into the arguement of we could take better things to maximize our groups potential.
Marauder Chosen + BO + WE + Double Dok, covers every possible base that a BG could hope to contribute plus added value. You could sub WE for a 2hander choppa and still have a double heal debuff...with on demand CC, aoe Snare, faster morales, and higher spike damage.
Gobtar wrote:I think BGs are playable tanks, they have all the core abilities that all other tanks have, they have CC skills that require effort but can be made to work, worse still you have been straw-maning my original argument this whole time forcing me to defend my stance on the one quality I think is useful to the BG...in this weird messed up counterpoint. The BG strengths are it's ability to CC HARDER (not better) than other classes, it has internal trade-offs...these traits don't mean the other aspects of the class are fine.
bloodi wrote:
No, it just means you have been ignoring the good parts to only point out the bad parts in order to portray a skewed view on the viability of the BG, i mean, when you only point situations where they are bad and refuse to talk about how good they are on others, is not me straw manning you, is you being partisan.
I haven't left out anything, over the course of this entire thread I have discussed the strengths and weaknesses of the black guard, I have discussed the failings of certain abilities that most people think are OP or good enough to wave the "they are fine" wand over. I started this conversation discussing the disparity between IBs and BG, and their heal debuff is something both share, and was also already brought up. If a complete and full breakdown of the entire BG class was required highlighting strengths and weaknesses I would have been happy to oblige, this was not the case. I am only interested in bringing to light theoritical black guard vs actual black guard.
Gobtar wrote:We are looking at the BGs ability to be competitive with other tank choices, which for destro yields it at the bottom of the barrel. And if it so happens that your opinion of me might lead this thread to be spared by your vitriol, please ignore away, I tire of defending my stance from fallacious arguments laced with snide remarks.
bloodi wrote:
I am pretty sure i never mentioned a single thing about you, i dont think i ever saw you play, mostly because i dont tend to pay attention to anyone names, what i did however was tell you to stop being partisan and telling half truths, which seems to be all the base for your argumentation on the bg, in this very same quote you go and say they are the bottom of the barrel, which is, to be honest, a laughable statement. Is even more funny that you go on and say you are "tired of defeding my stance from fallacious arguments with snide remarks.
Because after all, thats is a well documented fallacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
I am also not my stance, I am defending my argument, not myself.
I have yet to be actually refuted to why BG aren't the bottom rung of the destro tank latter. Bretin has explained why BOs are are really solid tanks, and everyone knows that Chosen are destros favoured tank. I bring up points that I feel the BG is weak at, I believe this is relevant to the conversation. Your entire argument has been taking umbridge with the fact that the marauder renders alot of the BGs strengths redundant, something you have not countered, but ultimately I stand by my point, while the Marauder remains to be the ultimate in destro MDPS technology, the BGs strengths are delegated to CC and tanking abilities, and if you can manage it, heal debuffing. As mentioned, Choking fury is powerful and a great tool, it's why earlier in the thread i said this:
...choking fury is indeed worth the mastery point
Like I said I haven't omitted anything, or half-lied or what not.
I am not the only person to note your foul mood and the fact that most of your posts included your mantra :"get a **** grip" (or an invitation, not sure which
) I don't know you well enough to know if you are projecting, as for poisoning the well, you were doing that to yourself well enough.
