2H Tanks: 9001th thread edition

[Wrathson]

2 hand tanks are good for ONE thing = CAUSING CHAOS IN THE ENEMIES RANKS AND PUSHING THEM BACK.

How many of you have seen me SINGLE-HANDEDLY turn the tide of an rvr/sc battle by OBLITERATING their formations and dividing/pushing them where it suits me/you?

I might die half the time but the other half of the time... well...

playing 2 hand tanks is about MASSIVE RISK AND ULTIMATE GLORY.

Heal that ****, you dig?

[GodlessCrom]

Kagaz, I've only seen you, without Guard up, bash on the other (sword/board) tanks and when asked to assist the melee, you said "**** off."

So uh, not sure if there is some sort of long-con style trolling going on here but the way you were playing is not really viable IMO.

[th3gatekeeper]

2h tanks are definitely not "viable", in that if you want to make an optimal group you'd take one over s/b. Theyre viable in sub-optimal groups, just like rdps and cloth healers are, but that doesnt mean theyre balanced. But how to do that, i guess il just throw out some thoughts before the balance threads start.

This was one of the most constructive posts Ive seen in the thread. Thanks and I wanted to continue this conversation so I pieced it out here.

FO: Would be a bad idea to change this, and as Azarael said, a tactic that is required for all builds should be made a toggle instead. I dont know if that means 2h tanks will be getting a toggle that will buff damage/debuff armor and FO will be removed, personally I dont think thats needed, as 2h tank damage is fine but they lack utility, but its an interesting idea.

Well, the way I see it "Taunt" is a toggle that is "required" for 2h/DPS tanks however it provides the SAME benefits to non-2h tanks as well. When I SnB I mainly use taunt for interrupts on backline Sorcs. When I am on my 2h Knight/SM I need to use Taunt as a damage booster... Without it, I do pathetic damage... This is already a toggle and why its been recommended that "Focused Offense'" Could enhance Taunt. Such as: Still provide 15% more damage, I would even be up for it saying "taunt no longer interrupts, but the damage bonus is increased 20%" So now you get 15% more base, lose taunt interrupt, but gain 20% more damage from taunt. This would be a good "toggle" effect. I think F.O. in its current form is just a HUGE waste. Id rather have all Tanks be given "GWM" instead and you can throw F.O. into the classes that have the tactic GWM in its place. Know why noone would want that? Because noone wants F.O..... I just needs to go, even leaving it at 15% more damage and removing the armor reduction would be a big plus.....

Great weapon tactics: These have been mentioned, and i'll throw out my idea - Make them core and give to all 6 tanks, and change them to 10% parry and 10% strikethrough. Because if ST healing becomes more common, s/b tanks will become even more preferred, so 2h builds absolutely need more access to parry, and strikethrough would also help them land their cc on other tanks/mdps, which would be a big buff for utility. This might run into the above problem of making it a required tactic, but I dont think that would happen, people could forgo this in place of more utility if their healers can make up for the increased damage.

10% parry and 10% strike through as a tactic? Still dont think it would be something I would use... As I said above, I think a more viable option would be replace F.O. with GWM. Unless you mean the "built in" advantage - which currently has strikethrough. However thats on a 2H, so it would give that to all classes too? Rather just see GWM on all tanks, buffed to 10% damage and 10% parry (up from 5%) and now its a good ability. GWs already have 10% strikethrough.

Unstoppable juggernaut: Someone mentioned this too and I think it would be neat to give it a different effect based on weapon, like - Reduces the cooldown on juggernaut to 20s. With a great weapon equipped, gives you a 25% speed boost for 3s after use, with a shield equipped, gives you immunity to roots/snares for 3s after use. Because as is I dont think anyone runs this in any tank build.

I actually had a similar idea. What if Unstop Juggernaut gave some type of other buff as well... 25% speed boost for 3 seconds I dont think is good enough IMO, but would be interesting to try... Would atleast make it harder to kite a tank.

Guard - It was suggested to give 2h tanks taunt a guard "debuff", which is a great idea. Something small like a 10% reduction in guards effectiveness while taunt is active would be interesting. At the same time, I would suggest changing 2h tanks guard to a base 40% reduction. Which might seem contradictory in a thread about buffing 2h tanks, but if they are going to be the offensive utility tanks, then the defensive utility builds need some advantage besides simply blocking more guard damage.

Not sure I like this... I think defensive tanks already get a big bonus in that guard damage can be blocked... So the SnB requires much less healing. I would leave guard as is for now, make some of these other adjustments first. I do think SnB tanks should be given something good (but they already have HtL)...

Blackguards - They need a knockdown in their dps tree (if people disagree go whine in the thread about it), and they need a source of parry other than anger drives me, which is impossible to get in a dps build; i'd suggest adding 25 parry for 5s to filled with fury. They could also use a mirror of runic shield, which will be an unpopular idea as people hate mirroring, but still, as you cant get shielding anger in a 2h build, they need something to deal with magic, if not this then something else. Without those 3 they will never be remotely viable with a 2h on.

Dont know BG well, so defer on this.

Chosen - Some suggested making destined for victory require either block or parry, which wouldnt fix the disparity, as youd never see a s/b chosen again. To prevent that youd have to give s/b builds something unique too, possibly a buff to oppression. Which would be complicated and probably needs its own thread. A simpler change would be to make relentless increase damage taken by the target by 10% while its channeled.

DfV on Parry would be a solid option actually since you cant parry all attacks and Mixed Defenses would still make this better for a SnB but give some value to 2H as well. I still think this needs to be nerfed to a 5 sec proc versus 3...

BO - Also run into the same problem with the morale tactic, which needs its own discussion. I will say that tree hit combo and the cd increaser need a 2h requirement, which is a big nerf to a mediocre class I know, and should wait til their s/bs specs get other buffs to compensate, but still, should happen eventually to give some advantage to going 2h.

Dont know class well, Defer here too.

Knight - As op as they are no one chooses a 2h knight over a s/b. A start would be to change myrmidias fury like relentless, and maybe buff staggering impact to include a 10% damage reduction so its not completely worthless. It would also be nice if encouraged aim gets a 2h req added to it, so both specs have a way to increase crit, and it would prevent s/b ones from buffing crit by 25% on their own (which everyone has to admit is just silly).

This is my main, so ill make suggestions here:
1) Put Dirty Tricks where "Laurel's of Victory" is.
2) remove "laurels" and replace it with "efficient swings" (where D.T. currently is) which makes path of Vigi cost less AP.
3) Leave E.A where it is, but make it require a 2H.
4) Where "Efficient Swings" is, add a new "Hastened Fury" - Anytime you crit, provides 25% increase to AA speed for 10 seconds to all allies within 100 feet.
5) Staggering Impact - Swaps tooltips with Heaven's Fury. Staggering Impact- hits all 40 feet infront of you for 154 damage, staggering for 3 seconds. (Unsure about CD, maybe 10 seconds? Keep in mind players become immune to stagger so its not as if you can spam this)
6) For both Chosen and Knights: Auras now require "build up" on the buff/debuff. Players will gain X (stat) every X seconds while in combat. Once leaving combat, stats will "reset" to 0. Meaning an aura like Stand Strong (Toughness) - instead of gaining a flat "75" toughness for the party, it starts at 0 (or maybe 5) and you gain say 5 toughness a second while in combat (max of 75). So now these auras require a build up of several seconds of combat - which also makes the Knight/Chosen desire to play more frontline and engage to stay in combat to keep the auras up.

Something to that effect. Now it splits up the 10% crit buffs. Makes the 2H spec more viable (IMO) as they provide significant party buffs (10% crit + AoE stagger + 25% AA speed) where SnB provide things like HtL, get Vigi, 10% crit after block etc etc.

IB - Wouldnt change much, they are probably the only one people run in both specs in serious groups. If you wanted a buff for them grudge born fury would be it, as I dont recall anyone ever speccing it.

Agreed.

SM - They need so much work im not even going to bother. Still, if I had one wish it would be for eagles flight to finally be mirrored to suppression; I never understood the logic behind one class getting a 15s duration and another getting the same ability for 5s.

Yeah.... Several of the abilities are just lackluster IMO. Eagles is just 1 of them - especially given many classes have abilities that "cannot be defended against". I think something like:
1) Heaven's Blade - now "steals" their resistances, lowing them and increasing yours by the same amount.
2) Nature's Blade - Stat duration increased to 15 seconds (up from 10).
3) Phantom's Blade - (just an idea) Changed to: Upon receiving damage 25% chance to lash out at an opponent dealing 150 damage and shielding you for the amount of damage dealt.

I would also look at:
4) Dragon's Talon - debuff increased to 10 seconds
5) Eagles - buff increased to 10 seconds.

[Wrathson]

Kagaz, I've only seen you, without Guard up, bash on the other (sword/board) tanks and when asked to assist the melee, you said "**** off."

So uh, not sure if there is some sort of long-con style trolling going on here but the way you were playing is not really viable IMO.

Oh dear, well, i guess you've never witnessed any one of the innumerable times i went straight past the melee/tank peeps to **** up the healers/ranged to drive them back so that everyone behind me can snare & stomp on the melees/tanks left behind which considering that that is my modus operandi you should have seen at least once.

I guard when it's viable/i can be bothered to remember to.

MY BUSINESS IS PURE WAAAGH **********. PURE WAAAGH.

[Tklees]

2h tanks are definitely not "viable", in that if you want to make an optimal group you'd take one over s/b. Theyre viable in sub-optimal groups, just like rdps and cloth healers are, but that doesnt mean theyre balanced. But how to do that, i guess il just throw out some thoughts before the balance threads start.

This was one of the most constructive posts Ive seen in the thread. Thanks and I wanted to continue this conversation so I pieced it out here.

FO: Would be a bad idea to change this, and as Azarael said, a tactic that is required for all builds should be made a toggle instead. I dont know if that means 2h tanks will be getting a toggle that will buff damage/debuff armor and FO will be removed, personally I dont think thats needed, as 2h tank damage is fine but they lack utility, but its an interesting idea.

Well, the way I see it "Taunt" is a toggle that is "required" for 2h/DPS tanks however it provides the SAME benefits to non-2h tanks as well. When I SnB I mainly use taunt for interrupts on backline Sorcs. When I am on my 2h Knight/SM I need to use Taunt as a damage booster... Without it, I do pathetic damage... This is already a toggle and why its been recommended that "Focused Offense'" Could enhance Taunt. Such as: Still provide 15% more damage, I would even be up for it saying "taunt no longer interrupts, but the damage bonus is increased 20%" So now you get 15% more base, lose taunt interrupt, but gain 20% more damage from taunt. This would be a good "toggle" effect. I think F.O. in its current form is just a HUGE waste. Id rather have all Tanks be given "GWM" instead and you can throw F.O. into the classes that have the tactic GWM in its place. Know why noone would want that? Because noone wants F.O..... I just needs to go, even leaving it at 15% more damage and removing the armor reduction would be a big plus.....

Great weapon tactics: These have been mentioned, and i'll throw out my idea - Make them core and give to all 6 tanks, and change them to 10% parry and 10% strikethrough. Because if ST healing becomes more common, s/b tanks will become even more preferred, so 2h builds absolutely need more access to parry, and strikethrough would also help them land their cc on other tanks/mdps, which would be a big buff for utility. This might run into the above problem of making it a required tactic, but I dont think that would happen, people could forgo this in place of more utility if their healers can make up for the increased damage.

10% parry and 10% strike through as a tactic? Still dont think it would be something I would use... As I said above, I think a more viable option would be replace F.O. with GWM. Unless you mean the "built in" advantage - which currently has strikethrough. However thats on a 2H, so it would give that to all classes too? Rather just see GWM on all tanks, buffed to 10% damage and 10% parry (up from 5%) and now its a good ability. GWs already have 10% strikethrough.

Unstoppable juggernaut: Someone mentioned this too and I think it would be neat to give it a different effect based on weapon, like - Reduces the cooldown on juggernaut to 20s. With a great weapon equipped, gives you a 25% speed boost for 3s after use, with a shield equipped, gives you immunity to roots/snares for 3s after use. Because as is I dont think anyone runs this in any tank build.

I actually had a similar idea. What if Unstop Juggernaut gave some type of other buff as well... 25% speed boost for 3 seconds I dont think is good enough IMO, but would be interesting to try... Would atleast make it harder to kite a tank.

Guard - It was suggested to give 2h tanks taunt a guard "debuff", which is a great idea. Something small like a 10% reduction in guards effectiveness while taunt is active would be interesting. At the same time, I would suggest changing 2h tanks guard to a base 40% reduction. Which might seem contradictory in a thread about buffing 2h tanks, but if they are going to be the offensive utility tanks, then the defensive utility builds need some advantage besides simply blocking more guard damage.

Not sure I like this... I think defensive tanks already get a big bonus in that guard damage can be blocked... So the SnB requires much less healing. I would leave guard as is for now, make some of these other adjustments first. I do think SnB tanks should be given something good (but they already have HtL)...

Blackguards - They need a knockdown in their dps tree (if people disagree go whine in the thread about it), and they need a source of parry other than anger drives me, which is impossible to get in a dps build; i'd suggest adding 25 parry for 5s to filled with fury. They could also use a mirror of runic shield, which will be an unpopular idea as people hate mirroring, but still, as you cant get shielding anger in a 2h build, they need something to deal with magic, if not this then something else. Without those 3 they will never be remotely viable with a 2h on.

Dont know BG well, so defer on this.

Chosen - Some suggested making destined for victory require either block or parry, which wouldnt fix the disparity, as youd never see a s/b chosen again. To prevent that youd have to give s/b builds something unique too, possibly a buff to oppression. Which would be complicated and probably needs its own thread. A simpler change would be to make relentless increase damage taken by the target by 10% while its channeled.

DfV on Parry would be a solid option actually since you cant parry all attacks and Mixed Defenses would still make this better for a SnB but give some value to 2H as well. I still think this needs to be nerfed to a 5 sec proc versus 3...

BO - Also run into the same problem with the morale tactic, which needs its own discussion. I will say that tree hit combo and the cd increaser need a 2h requirement, which is a big nerf to a mediocre class I know, and should wait til their s/bs specs get other buffs to compensate, but still, should happen eventually to give some advantage to going 2h.

Dont know class well, Defer here too.

Knight - As op as they are no one chooses a 2h knight over a s/b. A start would be to change myrmidias fury like relentless, and maybe buff staggering impact to include a 10% damage reduction so its not completely worthless. It would also be nice if encouraged aim gets a 2h req added to it, so both specs have a way to increase crit, and it would prevent s/b ones from buffing crit by 25% on their own (which everyone has to admit is just silly).

This is my main, so ill make suggestions here:
1) Put Dirty Tricks where "Laurel's of Victory" is.
2) remove "laurels" and replace it with "efficient swings" (where D.T. currently is) which makes path of Vigi cost less AP.
3) Leave E.A where it is, but make it require a 2H.
4) Where "Efficient Swings" is, add a new "Hastened Fury" - Anytime you crit, provides 25% increase to AA speed for 10 seconds to all allies within 100 feet.
5) Staggering Impact - Swaps tooltips with Heaven's Fury. Staggering Impact- hits all 40 feet infront of you for 154 damage, staggering for 3 seconds. (Unsure about CD, maybe 10 seconds? Keep in mind players become immune to stagger so its not as if you can spam this)
6) For both Chosen and Knights: Auras now require "build up" on the buff/debuff. Players will gain X (stat) every X seconds while in combat. Once leaving combat, stats will "reset" to 0. Meaning an aura like Stand Strong (Toughness) - instead of gaining a flat "75" toughness for the party, it starts at 0 (or maybe 5) and you gain say 5 toughness a second while in combat (max of 75). So now these auras require a build up of several seconds of combat - which also makes the Knight/Chosen desire to play more frontline and engage to stay in combat to keep the auras up.

Something to that effect. Now it splits up the 10% crit buffs. Makes the 2H spec more viable (IMO) as they provide significant party buffs (10% crit + AoE stagger + 25% AA speed) where SnB provide things like HtL, get Vigi, 10% crit after block etc etc.

IB - Wouldnt change much, they are probably the only one people run in both specs in serious groups. If you wanted a buff for them grudge born fury would be it, as I dont recall anyone ever speccing it.

Agreed.

SM - They need so much work im not even going to bother. Still, if I had one wish it would be for eagles flight to finally be mirrored to suppression; I never understood the logic behind one class getting a 15s duration and another getting the same ability for 5s.

Yeah.... Several of the abilities are just lackluster IMO. Eagles is just 1 of them - especially given many classes have abilities that "cannot be defended against". I think something like:
1) Heaven's Blade - now "steals" their resistances, lowing them and increasing yours by the same amount.
2) Nature's Blade - Stat duration increased to 15 seconds (up from 10).
3) Phantom's Blade - (just an idea) Changed to: Upon receiving damage 25% chance to lash out at an opponent dealing 150 damage and shielding you for the amount of damage dealt.

I would also look at:
4) Dragon's Talon - debuff increased to 10 seconds
5) Eagles - buff increased to 10 seconds.

Solid post. For those reading this is an example of the kind of posts that will be REQUIRED to post in the balance forums. Practice up. Both sizer and gatekeeper are good examples of posters with good historys to read through.

[Valrath]

The fact that tanks have the option to do SnB immediately makes 2h worthless. Doing like 15% - 25% more damage in a scenario is not worth the defenses lost and the utility granted from the SnB trees. They should have had some heavy armor wearing only 2hander classes with some type of defensive passives or abilities to negate damage in my opinion.

[Wrathson]

The fact that tanks have the option to do SnB immediately makes 2h worthless. Doing like 15% - 25% more damage in a scenario is not worth the defenses lost and the utility granted from the SnB trees. They should have had some heavy armor wearing only 2hander classes with some type of defensive passives or abilities to negate damage in my opinion.

Bork: Lots of strength wherever you can get it, armour/toughness tali's, initiative from renown points and the healing (forgot the name) war bellow. 1hand is BORING with a tank, you have to prefer defensive play to play 1hand.

[TenTonHammer]

lol no BOrc can do perfectly decent withouth 2h

it dosnt need to drop survive just so it can see some little bigger numbers

[Idrinth]

The fact that tanks have the option to do SnB immediately makes 2h worthless. Doing like 15% - 25% more damage in a scenario is not worth the defenses lost and the utility granted from the SnB trees. They should have had some heavy armor wearing only 2hander classes with some type of defensive passives or abilities to negate damage in my opinion.

That is why most ideas centered around aditional utility, from what I recall:
- kicks better by weapontype
- buff/debuff stronger when twohanded
- higher movement speed when twohanded
- anti-guard of some kind

The small part talking about damage was mostly rebalancing focussed offence, that seems a bit low on returns for the prce payed.

[Idrinth]

FO: Would be a bad idea to change this, and as Azarael said, a tactic that is required for all builds should be made a toggle instead. I dont know if that means 2h tanks will be getting a toggle that will buff damage/debuff armor and FO will be removed, personally I dont think thats needed, as 2h tank damage is fine but they lack utility, but its an interesting idea.

Well, the way I see it "Taunt" is a toggle that is "required" for 2h/DPS tanks however it provides the SAME benefits to non-2h tanks as well. When I SnB I mainly use taunt for interrupts on backline Sorcs. When I am on my 2h Knight/SM I need to use Taunt as a damage booster... Without it, I do pathetic damage... This is already a toggle and why its been recommended that "Focused Offense'" Could enhance Taunt. Such as: Still provide 15% more damage, I would even be up for it saying "taunt no longer interrupts, but the damage bonus is increased 20%" So now you get 15% more base, lose taunt interrupt, but gain 20% more damage from taunt. This would be a good "toggle" effect. I think F.O. in its current form is just a HUGE waste. Id rather have all Tanks be given "GWM" instead and you can throw F.O. into the classes that have the tactic GWM in its place. Know why noone would want that? Because noone wants F.O..... I just needs to go, even leaving it at 15% more damage and removing the armor reduction would be a big plus.....

Honestly, increasing the damage output is not really needed, so making taunt do that much more damage shouldn't be necessary either. I am still a fan of increasing Challenge and Taunt a bit in regards to removing them - double stacks means you need to be hit twice as much to remove the effect.

Regarding FO, that dps-tactic has no connection to twohanded tanks and is imo a decision so big, it should not be a toggle - it changes your whole focus from supporter to supported. What it really might need is small number adjustments to make it viable - then exchanging it with great weapon mastery would make some sense. If you do that before fixing FO, you'd just remove options, making the playstyles even less individual.

Great weapon tactics: These have been mentioned, and i'll throw out my idea - Make them core and give to all 6 tanks, and change them to 10% parry and 10% strikethrough. Because if ST healing becomes more common, s/b tanks will become even more preferred, so 2h builds absolutely need more access to parry, and strikethrough would also help them land their cc on other tanks/mdps, which would be a big buff for utility. This might run into the above problem of making it a required tactic, but I dont think that would happen, people could forgo this in place of more utility if their healers can make up for the increased damage.

10% parry and 10% strike through as a tactic? Still dont think it would be something I would use... As I said above, I think a more viable option would be replace F.O. with GWM. Unless you mean the "built in" advantage - which currently has strikethrough. However thats on a 2H, so it would give that to all classes too? Rather just see GWM on all tanks, buffed to 10% damage and 10% parry (up from 5%) and now its a good ability. GWs already have 10% strikethrough.

A tactic like that already exists and outside duels I have never seen it used(Discerning offence, swordmaster). I would prefer GWM as a base-line, it should fit in there absolutely fine balance wise - but then without more parry than now. The reason for that is, that it would allow more options this way, including more defensive, twohanded tanks - so we'd win options.

Unstoppable juggernaut: Someone mentioned this too and I think it would be neat to give it a different effect based on weapon, like - Reduces the cooldown on juggernaut to 20s. With a great weapon equipped, gives you a 25% speed boost for 3s after use, with a shield equipped, gives you immunity to roots/snares for 3s after use. Because as is I dont think anyone runs this in any tank build.

I actually had a similar idea. What if Unstop Juggernaut gave some type of other buff as well... 25% speed boost for 3 seconds I dont think is good enough IMO, but would be interesting to try... Would atleast make it harder to kite a tank.

That makes at least 3 of us I'm not sure if extra speed after usage is that helpful, it's then still something very, very casedependant(how often are you slowed?). I would prefer a baseline speed increase for both types, with a higher one for twohanded weapons. As a nice side-effect, that might make guarding mdps easier and make it harder to seperate twohanded tanks from their guardees. My proposed numbers were 5 and 10% speed as far as I recall.

Guard - It was suggested to give 2h tanks taunt a guard "debuff", which is a great idea. Something small like a 10% reduction in guards effectiveness while taunt is active would be interesting. At the same time, I would suggest changing 2h tanks guard to a base 40% reduction. Which might seem contradictory in a thread about buffing 2h tanks, but if they are going to be the offensive utility tanks, then the defensive utility builds need some advantage besides simply blocking more guard damage.

Not sure I like this... I think defensive tanks already get a big bonus in that guard damage can be blocked... So the SnB requires much less healing. I would leave guard as is for now, make some of these other adjustments first. I do think SnB tanks should be given something good (but they already have HtL)...

The way I understood it, the proposed guard base is 60% damage on guardee, 40% on guarder in his example. I would disagree with that and would rather take a "weaken guard", that moves the current 50%/50% to 55%/50% or similar - nothing gamebreaking, but a boost to a weak ability on a class-by class basis.

Blackguards - They need a knockdown in their dps tree (if people disagree go whine in the thread about it), and they need a source of parry other than anger drives me, which is impossible to get in a dps build; i'd suggest adding 25 parry for 5s to filled with fury. They could also use a mirror of runic shield, which will be an unpopular idea as people hate mirroring, but still, as you cant get shielding anger in a 2h build, they need something to deal with magic, if not this then something else. Without those 3 they will never be remotely viable with a 2h on.

tbh I don't see a reason for extra hate on twohanded BGs, but I can agree on more defence. I am unsure if the runic shield is a good choice, I'd see the BG as more of an avoidance tank when twohanded in that regard, so some kind of "wall of darting steel" could work thematically.

Regarding the class specific buffs, I'd prefer getting a general issue solved with shared things, so I'd disagree on getting every class revisited individually at this point - even if I agree, that there are some classes that have bad choices avaible :/
I do see the solution in a (de)buff-increase, a relatively simple way of making the twohanded tanks a bit more valuable. Having a 120 Strength aura or a 132 Strength aura might already help equalizing those specs, especially with the tactic changes above.