[Suggestion] Making guard less OP

[bwdaWAR]

Spoiler:

RoR is a community project but honestly: WAR's meta is working well. Having 1k people online daily - most of them in PvP - should be a proof. Spare me this "dis is alpha" and "we can test" bs. We're not testing a new game, we're recreating a already working one. Gimping it down by implementing stuff like this shouldn't be a goal.

Sorry, you can't be spared. It is an alpha. And testing new ideas has already happened. The RoR orvr mechanic, it didn't exist on live... made here by RoR. If the 1k people online are playing this new mechanic, sounds like the new tests and ideas are having great effect. How many people are still playing the live game exactly as it was. Oh yeah, zero.

This isn't WAR's meta, it's RoR's. A meta that has already seen some changes from live. A meta where 2hander WP's have aoe detaunt without using a tactic slot. Where t1 through t3 tanks and healers have access to fully designed dps gear sets... Where ideas are openly discussed and some are even implemented.

I think I read somewhere that if anyone is unhappy with the server, they are free to go and create their own emulator.

That doesn't mean every new idea, no matter how crazy/misinformed/biased, has to be tested though.

[Idrinth]

Incidentally, don't use tooltips or paperdoll figures when discussing evasion. It's really better for everyone if the figures are calculated against the maximum possible offensive values available, so that we're always talking about and balancing around a worst-case scenario (which is much more common than not with DPS stat priories being what they are).

For example the best shield available right now has a block rating of 364. The softcap for stats is 925. Most DPS will try to soft-cap their main offensive stat. The worst block rating you will ever actually have, and thus the value you are most likely to have, is 7.8%. Use this instead of the paperdoll figures.

Yes but guard damage ignores the enemies offensive investment

Only partly, since the guarded target is affected by those before it even gets split. Being hit via guard by someone with 300 strength or 30 strength does still make a difference

[Genisaurus]

Incidentally, don't use tooltips or paperdoll figures when discussing evasion. It's really better for everyone if the figures are calculated against the maximum possible offensive values available, so that we're always talking about and balancing around a worst-case scenario (which is much more common than not with DPS stat priories being what they are).

For example the best shield available right now has a block rating of 364. The softcap for stats is 925. Most DPS will try to soft-cap their main offensive stat. The worst block rating you will ever actually have, and thus the value you are most likely to have, is 7.8%. Use this instead of the paperdoll figures.

Yes but guard damage ignores the enemies offensive investment

Mm. I'm still running slow this morning. I meant more in a general sense, not specifically blocking guard damage.

But on the other hand, and I know this is just fueling the discussion I said was unlikely to lead to any changes, look at that disparity. An almost 15% higher chance to block guarded damage than the attack itself that generated it. Not personally saying whether I think that's too high or too low, but that's what Aza's comments were about.

[Azarael]

so when can we expect these changes to be live ?

There won't BE any changes.

I am not so arrogant to as to believe that my ideas are worth more than those of experienced members of the community. Me as a participant in a discussion and me as a developer are distinct, and me expressing an opinion on a discussion can be taken as a request for enlightenment from the community rather than as a statement of rock-solid belief and intent.

(Also, no changes until T4. Period.)

[noisestorm]

(Also, no changes until T4. Period.)

And for everyone wondering or complainging now: this does not include obviously broken mechanics and simply unfixed mythic bugs from what we've seen so far...

[Penril]

Guard is fine. The only "problem" with it is that only 4 classes can deal with it appropiately (BG, IB, KotBS and Chosen) thanks to long distance punts that give your group a window to kill the guarded target. Which is the reason why several people always asked for a ST punt on BO/SM on live and in RoR. Basically, the best way to deal with guard (provided by a tank) is CC applied by your own tanks. That seems about right.

There was a discussion some months ago where people also suggested giving 2H tanks a way to counter guard. If a SnB is the best guard-tank, then maybe 2H tanks could counter it by either ignoring guard, or removing it for 2-3 seconds, or something like that. I am fine with a change like that. But overall, Guard is imho perfectly fine.

[Azarael]

@Penril: Was thinking along similar lines. If the cornerstone of Guard is that it keeps tanks in the game, which other MMOs fail to do, then allowing 2H tanks some unique interaction with Guard (since they sacrifice so much of their own defense against it) ensures that the intent of keeping tanks relevant is not violated.

Wingz previously suggested that SM / BO 2h DPS compensates in some way for their inability to superpunt. That for me works along these lines.

[mursie]

That doesn't mean every new idea, no matter how crazy/misinformed/biased, has to be tested though.

I agree. I think the track record for RoR would clearly indicate that not every idea is tested. Very very few in reality.

The current time to kill is already fairly low, especially when playing order. I doubt that will change in “our” super late game, which is miles away anyway. Range dps were benefited already quite a lot in the latest game update. They will scale pretty well into t4. No need to benefit them more. Note: rdps is by far the easiest to play archetype (low risk/high reward). Considering the fairly low defense values in t4, the available pocket items and renown abilities, i fail to see how any buff to them - and that's what it is - would be justified.

On the other hand zergs would get another advantage over groups

Open discussion of ideas is necessary. Sometimes you get QoL idea changes that help the game (aoe tactic free detaunt for WP. Dev 5 pc procs that actually create choice for specific classes. etc..) It gives channels for points like the above which are well thought out. This point clearly gives counters to any perceived issues with guard. With open discussion we get great comments like this. And this is good.

No need to be afraid of discussion.

[Idrinth]

Guard is fine. The only problem with it is that only 4 classes can deal with it appropiately (BG, IB, KotBS and Chosen) thanks to long distance punts that give your group a window to kill the guarded target. Which is the reason why several people always asked for a ST punt on BO/SM on live and in RoR. Basically, the best way to deal with guard (provided by a tank) is CC applied by your own tanks. That seems about right.

There was a discussion some months ago where people also suggested giving 2H tanks a way to counter guard. If a SnB is the best guard-tank, then maybe 2H tanks could counter it by either ignoring guard, or removing it for 2-3 seconds, or something like that. I am fine with a change like that. But overall, Guard is imho perfectly fine.

What about a guard-debuff, that would just reduce the guard effect on a single target a tiny bit? We'd need guard-buffs as well to opposed that, but still. Imo possible options would be:

Guardee/Guard
Guard-ST-Buff: 45/50
Guard-Group-Buff: 50/45
Guard-ST-Inc-Debuff(on Tank): 50/60
Guard-ST-Out-Debuff(on Guardee): 55/50

Worst Case: 100%-> 55%+60%(115%)
Best Case: 100% -> 45%+45%(90%)

Both: 50*1.1*0.9 + 50*1.2*0.9=49.5% + 54%

I do not believe we'll really need adjustments here, and if those buffs and debuffs turn up they need to be very short.

[bwdaWAR]

There was a discussion some months ago where people also suggested giving 2H tanks a way to counter guard. If a SnB is the best guard-tank, then maybe 2H tanks could counter it by either ignoring guard, or removing it for 2-3 seconds, or something like that. I am fine with a change like that. But overall, Guard is imho perfectly fine.

If it's not too convoluted to code, a Champion's Challenge from a tank having a twohanded weapon equipped could also disable, or lower the damage reduction of any active Guard (when used on the guarding tank)? It's available to all tanks, and being a morale ability limits its usage. It's pretty visible too, so both sides can react to it. Plus it does mean some risk for the user, too. I was going to suggest knockdown/disarm disabling it, but not all twohanded tanks can do that.

+What might be better: Champion's Challenge would disable/lower Guard damage reduction for both tanks, regardless of gear, when used on a tank. It would reflect the Champion's Challenge mindset since both user and target are locked in place, and would have an inherent risk when using this tactic instead of long distance punts. So it's a choice of making one's own guardee (if there is any) more vulnerable in exchange for making the enemy guardee vulnerable as well, and both teams get an opportunity for burst DPS vs burst healing. As far as I know, Champion's Challenge is rarely, if ever, used on tanks as it is now anyways.