[Suggestion] Making guard less OP

[Jail]

A full def tank that can survive tons of guard damage but does nothing but guard and CC is a wasted slot anyways.

[Annaise16]

...

Guard damage should very rarely be a concern to a tank that is running even a semi-defensive build.

This is partly the point. Tank needs to spec defensively (block/parry) in order not to be an extra burden on healers from Guard damage when **** starts to hit the fan. Guard is well balanced as it is in my opinion.

I never specced extra block or parry. The base block value against guard damage is the value on the paper doll. It was normally about 30%+. Add basic parry from weapon skill and you are deflecting about 40% of incoming guard damage. So you are taking only about 60% of the damage inflicted on the guarded target. Group healing is enough to cover that. Hell, a lot the time regen was enough to cover Guard damage.

[Annaise16]

soulcheg, if you are guarding a choppa in the MIDDLE of the enemy zerg you are supposed to die,
And if not, there is somth wrong with guard, if it allows you to stand in the enemy zerg without dying.
just saying.

This is a subjective argument and should probably be refrained from. Unless you properly define what "zerg" is and how much incoming damange we are talking about. I am sure soulcheg would not expect a guarded Choppa to survive for long being focused by a 12+ ppl.

I'm pretty sure he is implying exactly that.

The standard argument from people in premades when defending the OP survivability of wp/dok was that healers in their premade should be able to tank pug warbands. This is the same argument. The people who make these arguments seem to believe that their if they are in their group, their toon should never die to pugs.

[Bretin]

I never specced extra block or parry. The base block value against guard damage is the value on the paper doll. It was normally about 30%+. Add basic parry from weapon skill and you are deflecting about 40% of incoming guard damage. So you are taking only about 60% of the damage inflicted on the guarded target. Group healing is enough to cover that. Hell, a lot the time regen was enough to cover Guard damage.

you're entertaining m8. where do those 30%+ exactly come from? "add basic parry from weapon skill". would be really nice to see how you back up your next random number. assuming you went full "off" ( :^) ) to reach that, considering the way it's calculated:

<chance to parry> = (<weaponskill>/<strength>*0.075)+(<defenders increase in parry> - <attackers reduction in parry>

yet all you do is throwing in random numbers and once your posts get disassembled you chicken out of the discussion or avoid replies. But i'm honestly not interessted in derailing by starting a flame war, so maybe just ignore this and connect some evidence with your posts.

[Luth]

Spoiler:

I never specced extra block or parry. The base block value against guard damage is the value on the paper doll. It was normally about 30%+. Add basic parry from weapon skill and you are deflecting about 40% of incoming guard damage. So you are taking only about 60% of the damage inflicted on the guarded target. Group healing is enough to cover that. Hell, a lot the time regen was enough to cover Guard damage.

you're entertaining m8. where do those 30%+ exactly come from? "add basic parry from weapon skill". would be really nice to see how you back up your next random number. assuming you went full "off" ( :^) ) to reach that, considering the way it's calculated:

<chance to parry> = (<weaponskill>/<strength>*0.075)+(<defenders increase in parry> - <attackers reduction in parry>

yet all you do is throwing in random numbers and once your posts get disassembled you chicken out of the discussion or avoid replies. But i'm honestly not interessted in derailing by starting a flame war, so maybe just ignore this and connect some evidence with your posts.

http://www.arsenalofwar.com/items/Order ... 0Reckoning
A block value of 484 should give about 28% blockchance against guard damage.
I don't know what the common basic values for a melee character are on level 40; with 400 WS you should get about 8.5 parry chance against guard damage.

The formula posted calculates the parry chance vs a normal hit from an attacker against the defender, not from the guardtank against himself (guard damage) as it factors in the attackers strength and other parry reduction modifiers.
Guard damage is never modified by strength etc., as the tank would worsen his own block/parry chance vs damage from guard with a high strength value and other defense strikethough modifiers.

[Annaise16]

Spoiler:

I never specced extra block or parry. The base block value against guard damage is the value on the paper doll. It was normally about 30%+. Add basic parry from weapon skill and you are deflecting about 40% of incoming guard damage. So you are taking only about 60% of the damage inflicted on the guarded target. Group healing is enough to cover that. Hell, a lot the time regen was enough to cover Guard damage.

you're entertaining m8. where do those 30%+ exactly come from? "add basic parry from weapon skill". would be really nice to see how you back up your next random number. assuming you went full "off" ( :^) ) to reach that, considering the way it's calculated:

<chance to parry> = (<weaponskill>/<strength>*0.075)+(<defenders increase in parry> - <attackers reduction in parry>

yet all you do is throwing in random numbers and once your posts get disassembled you chicken out of the discussion or avoid replies. But i'm honestly not interessted in derailing by starting a flame war, so maybe just ignore this and connect some evidence with your posts.

http://www.arsenalofwar.com/items/Order ... 0Reckoning
A block value of 484 should give about 28% blockchance against guard damage.
I don't know what the common basic values for a melee character are on level 40; with 400 WS you should get about 8.5 parry chance against guard damage.

The formula posted calculates the parry chance vs a normal hit from an attacker against the defender, not from the guardtank against himself (guard damage) as it factors in the attackers strength and other parry reduction modifiers.
Guard damage is never modified by strength etc., as the tank would worsen his own block/parry chance vs damage from guard with a high strength value and other defense strikethough modifiers.

There were also percentage buffs to Block and parry on gear.

My main tank was an SM. I also had Eagle's Flight to buff parry if things got tough. I alto used the vaul's Buffer tactic that added an absorb bubble which mitigated a lot of guard damage. Other tank classes had similar ways to buff their defence against Guard damage. It was rarely a concern and easily countered when it became a concern.

[Bretin]

http://www.arsenalofwar.com/items/Order ... 0Reckoning
A block value of 484 should give about 28% blockchance against guard damage.

he stated he leveled up a character to 40/90 with dying once to guard dmg. that means he went from 1-40/90. so where do those 30% base block value against guard comes from before RR75?

Source:

Any tank that has a shield or has stacked parry is very unlikely to ever die from guard damage unless they are truly careless AND have no healing. I played my SM to 40/90 in AOR and died from guard damage once. That was in tier 2 when the toon was about level 15 at a last stand in a keep where there were no healers.

I don't know what the common basic values for a melee character are on level 40; with 400 WS you should get about 8.5 parry chance against guard damage.

The formula posted calculates the parry chance vs a normal hit from an attacker against the defender, not from the guardtank against himself (guard damage) as it factors in the attackers strength and other parry reduction modifiers.
Guard damage is never modified by strength etc., as the tank would worsen his own block/parry chance vs damage from guard with a high strength value and other defense strikethough modifiers.

yes my bad. i figured that i used the wrong formula.

for the claimed amount of 10% you need exactly 467 WS at lvl 40. his base WS on lvl 40 should be 221. Where do those missing 246 WS come from? Gear? RA? If yes, why would you do this? even as a offensive oriented SM the only physical damage you deal comes from Snare and Auto Attack. The rest is spirit dmg, if played correct.

Besides that you don't take guard damage exclusive. So even if you're able to tank guard damage, you have to deal with direct damage too. Just because he died once to himself that doesn't mean guard damage wasn't the reason for multiple other deaths where hostiles got the deathblow. against those hostiles the 467 WS wouldn't result in 10% flat parry. so the number is vague. but let's not drift apart. you're right against guard exclusive: i linked the wrong formula, period.

fact is: guard damage is a huge factor and the reason why tanks die. maybe not guard damage exclusive but its general impact in a pvp situation.

I also had Eagle's Flight to buff parry if things got tough

that is not related to WS and we're not discussing the availability of certain parry tools on the SM. I'm aware of the fact that he can reach 100%. no need to derail at this point.

[Annaise16]

http://www.arsenalofwar.com/items/Order ... 0Reckoning
A block value of 484 should give about 28% blockchance against guard damage.

he stated he leveled up a character to 40/90 with dying once to guard dmg. that means he went from 1-40/90. so where do those 30% base block value against guard comes from before RR75?

Source:

Any tank that has a shield or has stacked parry is very unlikely to ever die from guard damage unless they are truly careless AND have no healing. I played my SM to 40/90 in AOR and died from guard damage once. That was in tier 2 when the toon was about level 15 at a last stand in a keep where there were no healers.

I don't know what the common basic values for a melee character are on level 40; with 400 WS you should get about 8.5 parry chance against guard damage.

The formula posted calculates the parry chance vs a normal hit from an attacker against the defender, not from the guardtank against himself (guard damage) as it factors in the attackers strength and other parry reduction modifiers.
Guard damage is never modified by strength etc., as the tank would worsen his own block/parry chance vs damage from guard with a high strength value and other defense strikethough modifiers.

yes my bad. i figured that i used the wrong formula.

for the claimed amount of 10% you need exactly 467 WS at lvl 40. his base WS on lvl 40 should be 221. Where do those missing 246 WS come from? Gear? RA? If yes, why would you do this? even as a offensive oriented SM the only physical damage you deal comes from Snare and Auto Attack. The rest is spirit dmg, if played correct.

Besides that you don't take guard damage exclusive. So even if you're able to tank guard damage, you have to deal with direct damage too. Just because he died once to himself that doesn't mean guard damage wasn't the reason for multiple other deaths where hostiles got the deathblow. against those hostiles the 467 WS wouldn't result in 10% flat parry. so the number is vague. but let's not drift apart. you're right against guard exclusive: i linked the wrong formula, period.

fact is: guard damage is a huge factor and the reason why tanks die. maybe not guard damage exclusive but its general impact in a pvp situation.

I also had Eagle's Flight to buff parry if things got tough

that is not related to WS and we're not discussing the availability of certain parry tools on the SM. I'm aware of the fact that he can reach 100%. no need to derail at this point.

The extra percentage values came from scen emblem shields and armor percentage buffs.

I didn't even use a shield until I reached rr55 on the SM. But I used Eagle's Flight much more often in the earlier levels. I only started using the shield when I started coming up against a lot of rr70+ dps. This was in the pre-80+ days. I mostly avoided being killed by guard damage by not being truly careless.

[Arbich]

The worst thing about guard is that it encourages group-heal. But I know no solution to this "problem".
Guard itself is ok at the moment, so no change needed. It should always balanced the way that unless you are a real def-tank with laughable dmg-output, you should have real struggle to survive as guard-tank.

If in the future a guarded mdps and is guard-tank are practically two virtually unkillable mpds, then a change in the guard-mechanic is needed.

One thing that should never changed is adding cooldown for guard-change. I never played tank on live, but in my opinion switching guard to the right/wrong target is a sign of (or lack of^^) skill for tanks. And you can´t know which target your opponents select next in advance.

[Bretin]

The extra percentage values came from scen emblem shields and armor percentage buffs. I didn't even use a shield until I reached rr55 on the SM.
But I used Eagle's Flight much more often in the earlier levels. I only started using the shield when I started coming up against a lot of rr70+ dps. This was in the pre-80+ days.

mate again, you claim to have a flat 10% parry from WS and a flat 30% base block rate in any bracket from 1-40/90. that's how you are able to avoid 40% of the incoming guard damage. yet you have no evidence for that nor can you explain where the missing WS comes from.

also i'm waiting for an answer about which sense it makes to go 2h, with absorb and WS renown abilities on a SM if that build is the question for the above mentioned question.

all you do atm is trying to defend yourself by throwing in classed based abilities which were never a contentious part of my question.

I mostly avoided being killed by guard damage by not being truly careless.

how did you do this? leaving the guard range cause you couldn't tank the guard damage? so basically you admit here that you had to CARE about guard damage? so if you had to CARE about it, why would you nerf it?

you should really stop it right here unless you have anything based on evidence.