[Suggestion] Making guard less OP

[bwdaWAR]

Spoiler:

If I may ask... given that tanks in RvR strap on shields and WP / DoK are expressly cited as being almost mandatory for large scale combat, what exactly is the niche of a hybrid?

(Please don't say 1on1.)

Sorry to disappoint you, but yes. 1on1. It is a niche and they fill the spot nicely. Apart from that we have smallscale RvR, where a Hybrid is fine and dandy. Talking about group sizes 2-5. Then we have kiting squads, another niche where hbrids are welcome. What did you expect when talking about niche, everyday high level 6v6?

The problem is that making reference to 1on1 to support one's argument is forbidden.

Specialists are more effective in teamplay than hybrids. Hybrids only really work when you don't have enough of one role and you take the best option available, or if you don't have enough of multiple roles and need one to help out with all of them. So it's the extreme end of small scale (where a small number of players has to do everything), or not having the ideal party member there.
The WP/DoK groupheal one aside... the same could be said about DPS healer, tanky DPS, not just DPS tanks. They're just not as good for a 6+ group as pure DPS, healer build healers and endurance tanks. It's a problem with hybrid builds, not Guard, or even tanks. And I don't think this is an issue that has a fix of any kind - hybrids are fillers (or solo).

[Tesq]

or instead of 2 pure you get 2 hybrid so that instead have a heal and a dd you have a

2x 50% dd /50% healer which is exatly as have 1 100% dd and 1 100% healer in paper and it's how it should be aim to balanced.

and it can still be do in a kind of 2-2-2 format

2x tank
1x dps
2x heal/dps
1x heal

[ThePollie]

or instead of 2 pure you get 2 hybrid so that instead have a heal and a dd you have a

2x 50% dd /50% healer which is exatly as have 1 100% dd and 1 100% healer in paper and it's how it should be aim to balanced.

and it can still in 2-2-2.

2 tank 1 dps 2 heal/dps 1 heal

This works fine for ranged hybrids, not for melee. You'll just get smashed by the omnipresent counterplay of "train the melee healer".

[noisestorm]

Spoiler:

Just as a few examples i'll start with chosen: Supress 25% Parry + Mixed defenses

Supress can be parried and has nowhere near 100% uptime. Mixed defenses wasn't skilled until now, we'll see if that changes-

Kotbs: X% through Runefang, Shield Rush 10% block+"15% Parry" (??)

Slotting runefang as a KotBS?

SM: Potential double parry tactic, 10% block/parry through stance tactic, 5% through 2h tactic, 25% eagles flight.

Double parry tactic is level 37 and really bad for guarddamage. 10% block parry is only 10% in the final stance. 5% 2h tactic means we are talking about a 2H tank, so guarddamage is certainly not negligible for him.

The idea that Chosen and Knight are the perfect deftards isn't new and I am not saying that their damage mitigation is superior to the others, but I still don't agree with nerfing guard based on T3

Of those, kiting squads are the only niche I'd recognize based on a view towards either 6v6/12v12 SC play or mass RvR

12v12 SC means pugs vs pugs? Hybrids really shine there, especially AMs. Mass RvR is a similar case, unless we talk about organized mass rvr. Just to clarify, those seem to be the major things people do on this server, solo SC and zerging.

IB and BG: Oathbound 25% for 2 targets, Oathstone / Elite Training , 3-30% Parry on hatred, Shield Mastery 10% block 5% reduced dmg...

I just state it again. Later on with set bonis and reactionary proccs as well. Even as 2h tanks, the guard damage can be negated very well.

I say it again for the others too: Guard should not be changed in regard of the one that is being guarded, but in regards of what the guarding >Tank< receives from it. The >Tank< should not be so ridiculously tanky while having someone guarded. If the guard values or whatever get changed i agree that every DPS is going to be blown up, but that is something i explicitly said now again that i dont seek.

Having someone guarded in a decent group has literally NO drawback for a tank and THIS is the issue i have.

[Tesq]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqL6Tszymlc

0,56 kd (all skill black) + hold the line bug while kd ( still using hold the line and holding camera feel as not KDed) + be able to block parry etc.

[Azarael]

I accept that as proof (Shield of Reprisal). Knockdowns will no longer cause defense checks to be bypassed.

[roadkillrobin]

Why is this thread so full of nonsence and false information? Guard isn't op. The game is ballanced around it. My guess is that thiss QQ from some ranged dps that solo que all day long and don't know how to pick targets. Saying that guarding is a no skill is completly bullshit. A bad tank wont guard. A slightly better tank guard a healer or rdps and run around in enemies backlines while his team dies without even noticing anything. An ok tank will guard a dps and stay within guardrange. A good tank will guard and stick on their target and swap guard around to backline if needed. The best tanks can read the combat situations so good that he can swap guards arund before people even have taken dmg he's also 100% opporational with assists. CC and know when to use challange and morales. See theres a massive skill gap with just using 1 abillity

[Tesq]

or instead of 2 pure you get 2 hybrid so that instead have a heal and a dd you have a

2x 50% dd /50% healer which is exatly as have 1 100% dd and 1 100% healer in paper and it's how it should be aim to balanced.

and it can still in 2-2-2.

2 tank 1 dps 2 heal/dps 1 heal

This works fine for ranged hybrids, not for melee. You'll just get smashed by the omnipresent counterplay of "train the melee healer".

the point is you have 3 be able to heal ppl, and 1 is always guard, and most likely can be a dok/wp while the second a shammy/AM.

So even over guard swap dok/wp have a 100% update time active deatunt, it suck due to cc immunity which pure melee have and hybrids dont. But focus 1 hybrid still let you have 1,5/2 heal at your disposition which is not when you get 1/2 pure healer focussed.
So it really came down to classes balance rather than party balance.

2-2-2 is fine

[Nameless]

the thing is that guard is pretty tightly connected with healing. And changing the gurad mechanic means changing the healing meta

My view is that it would be good if guard doesnt reduce damage but transfer raw stats from the tank to the guarded person. That way the tank wont take extra dmg \although it will be abit squshier\ and the dps will be tougher cos of the extra stats. Most important is that this will promote much more ST healing instead of gheal. But that wont happened so shrug....

[Morf]

Guard is a fundamental part of war's pvp, i dont think its a good idea to make changes to it, its not as if it has a great range, 30 ft isnt far.
Guard has a counter, knockbacks, granted in a pug situation where cc is thrown around willy nilly it will be difficult to get rid of the tank but that is where teamwork/skill comes into play.
Guard is fine as is.