DefinitelyNotWingz wrote:
Erengrads Nachtwache, one of the best guilds on Drakenwald if not the best. RP/RP and AM/RP was their setup.
Impressed!
So we have one guild and a possible 2x Runie then. Lets see if we can add more.
EDIT: I was actually guessing no one would come up with one.
L2P issue + we dont have a 6on6 scene here so this setup is inferior to anything combined with WP.
To fight uneven numbers you need a wp and until we have even numbers in most of the fights nobody will run RP/RP, AM/RP or AM/AM.
As I keep stating, the problem with wp/dok is the low skillcap. That is not necessarily a bad thing since the majority is pugs here. You will just not see wp/rp or wp/am as often as wp/wp.
Azarael wrote:Could you explain how the proposition to have Purify and Patch Wounds perform both a single target cleanse and a group cleanse, with the group cleanse component only able to affect AoE debuffs, would be an issue?
not sure to have understand what you're asking? did you ask if it would be just better to have group cleanse only affect dots that work aoe?
The idea would be that WP/DoK ST cleanse would remain as it always did. Slotting the gcleanse tactic would additionally allow it to cleanse 1 AoE debuff from each member of your group, with the exception of the target you ST cleansed.
Bullshit, armor prayer does not stack with armor potion and one of those has to be present always.
sry that you have problems with making your points clear in english and just a hint armor potion doesn;t stack with the HoT prcoc either so your point is what excactly?????
istvar wrote:
Rp is not the only healer in grp, when you compare you compare balanced. Dps following the rp can not dmg your grp.
Otherwise you could come up with some zerg vs 6 man stuff. Not relevant and so is your argument.
RP still stands farther away from the enemie dps and you can only catch him with range cc or speedbuff which will not be enough in most cases.
funny since u tried to pull the exact same **** when comparing armor values........and yes 6v6 is the main form of pvp in this game....i am loving all those 6v6 scenarios we are having
istvar wrote:
lets not even get started on DoK/zealot or DoK/Shaman with the great healing tools while kiteing while every knight with half a brain says thank you while shattering 2 shammy hots with 1 ability
Every healer with half a brain stands more than 5f away from any hostile tank.
cherry picking again
istvar wrote:
i'm sure you will just keep cherry picking the points you want to look at to prove your point so i guess this has become pointless
Thats exactly what you just did.
as is what you do eveytime you write something
What is your ingame name? Would like to see a correlation between the bs you write here and ingame performance.
Istvaar, Istvor, Istwarf uget the jist....or maybe not
no go ahead and call for a 6v6 to prove that your argument is right while our grp plays with 400 ping and yours with sub 100
sry to go a bit off topic here but it really doesn't hurt to remain a civil tone in a conversation.
too lazy to find your post but you said something along the lines of : RP/RP or AM/AM or AM/RP can be better than WP/WP grps but optimal combo is WP/RP or WP/AM and vs zerg WP/WP
boggles my mind that you argue what you do in this thread and don't see how retarded that makes you look after a statement like that
as for the Grp Cleanse, granted there is some circumstances where it offers no advantage but it doesn;t mean in any case that it is a disadvantage over single target cleanse.... so either it works the same as single target cleanse would vs assist train...... or it works better vs aoe comps........... so what is the down side of it again????????
Azarael wrote:Could you explain how the proposition to have Purify and Patch Wounds perform both a single target cleanse and a group cleanse, with the group cleanse component only able to affect AoE debuffs, would be an issue?
not sure to have understand what you're asking? did you ask if it would be just better to have group cleanse only affect dots that work aoe?
The idea would be that WP/DoK ST cleanse would remain as it always did. Slotting the gcleanse tactic would additionally allow it to cleanse 1 AoE debuff from each member of your group, with the exception of the target you ST cleansed.
it's alredy this way for dok but i dont get why it should happen any change at all in that or a similar direction
if g-cleanse is an hard counter to aoe dot like exemple vs engi/magus (it isn't for me) then this change would have no sense.
if cleanse generally need to remove some nasty effects as heal debuff then limit more what can be cleanse can only lead to use st heal debuff that cannot be cleanse by the st cleanser healer and thus have st heal debuff uncleansebale as results if the dok/wp use the g-cleanse tactic.
if- g-cleanse work on 2/3 type of dot then this would further limit it's viability to actually cleanse. Dont know if every aoe debuff of opposite realm can be cleanse by wp/dok g-cleanse so it would actually may happen a bigger restriction that what is your aim.
-->you may have g-cleanse be able to cleanse only aoe dot and "not" all of em make it a very niche tactic with very lot of downside so you would just change the very meta due the no way to cleanse to a def meta due the better efficency of heal debuff and dots ( may not be so bad indeed but you may ruin totally a tactic and meta).
even work around the cleanse timer is bad, 5 sec is exatly how much cleanse suppose to be, 10 sec make it useless as it's just better heal cos cleanse 1 and see it re-applied aoe naturaly due classes rotations; while instead have it with no cd at all make totally useless dot classes( this time for real).
which is why if 5 sec is fine; skills like CD increase/decrease make it very bad / too good.
the problem to fix is wrong, you want fix the derivation instead the source of the problem which are cd increase/decrease both for god group heals and godly 20 g-cleanse in 10 seconds (1 every 0,5) x1 dok/wp if you want
edit: it would better nerf heavily all cd increase/reduction skill in game (i know you need to nerf SM too this way,it can't be saved) then allow shammy/zealot and AM/rune to group cleanse for base while dok/wp need to slot it, then you could change the cleanse CD ; as having 2 x healer that can cleanse make the g-cleanse faster so that it could be change to 10 sec.
This way you still have 2x cleanse every 10 sec as now and not anymore any broken god cleanse while toying with CD
You would incentive not 2x healer set up as may have been 2x in 1.4.0
You have more controll as dev over how much cleanse impact the game , had been CD incr /reduct nerfed to the ground and you could fix the aoe cleanse game-wide increase or decrease the cost for cleanse which is a lot easier this way.
Then the only diff between healers would be "how much they heal x how much they are durable x other utility they bring" which it can easier balanced by increase or decrease the effectiveness of their tools class by class
Last edited by Tesq on Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:00 pm, edited 26 times in total.
istvar wrote:
Istvaar, Istvor, Istwarf uget the jist....or maybe not
no go ahead and call for a 6v6 to prove that your argument is right while our grp plays with 400 ping and yours with sub 100
sry to go a bit off topic here but it really doesn't hurt to remain a civil tone in a conversation.
too lazy to find your post but you said something along the lines of : RP/RP or AM/AM or AM/RP can be better than WP/WP grps but optimal combo is WP/RP or WP/AM and vs zerg WP/WP
boggles my mind that you argue what you do in this thread and don't see how retarded that makes you look after a statement like that
as for the Grp Cleanse, granted there is some circumstances where it offers no advantage but it doesn;t mean in any case that it is a disadvantage over single target cleanse.... so either it works the same as single target cleanse would vs assist train...... or it works better vs aoe comps........... so what is the down side of it again????????
Learn to quote.
What you wrote:
too lazy to find your post but you said something along the lines of : RP/RP or AM/AM or AM/RP can be better than WP/WP grps but optimal combo is WP/RP or WP/AM and vs zerg WP/WP
What I wrote:
And yes depending on the situation AM/AM and RP/RP can be superior to RP/WP or WP/WP, overall RP/WP and AM/WP are the strongest for order in general. Fighting zergs it is WP/WP.
I didnt write optimal I wrote strongest in general. Which means the strongest in general is a combination of ae and st healer. Fight a zerg and you will probably want 2 ae healers, fight a small grp or pve and you might want to have more st heal. Either way if it is a mix of both, zerg and small scale/pve, ae and st healer are perfect.
Civil tone is much to ask for when you step in and dont have a clue about the very basics of the game.
I feel I dont have to explain them when we are actually argueing about sth very specific.
Why would I ask you for a 6on6? We both know it is a waste of time. That is why we can take the shortcut and you accept some of my statements refering to 6on6.
I also think you should just follow the discussion and start to learn. Even when you played WAR for years there is no guarantee to have a clue about the game.
Azarael wrote:Could you explain how the proposition to have Purify and Patch Wounds perform both a single target cleanse and a group cleanse, with the group cleanse component only able to affect AoE debuffs, would be an issue?
not sure to have understand what you're asking? did you ask if it would be just better to have group cleanse only affect dots that work aoe?
The idea would be that WP/DoK ST cleanse would remain as it always did. Slotting the gcleanse tactic would additionally allow it to cleanse 1 AoE debuff from each member of your group, with the exception of the target you ST cleansed.
Tha aoe dot dependent classes/specs are the weakest in the game Slayer SL being the exception I can conjure up.
EDIT: Well that and tank AOE snares that requires tactics.
I feel this change would kill them completely as typically the number of ST effects outnumbers the number of AOE effects by a wide margin.
Targeting "someone else" to be able to remove a SL from the guy you want to help also feel awkward.
Last edited by Bozzax on Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.
DefinitelyNotWingz wrote:
As I keep stating, the problem with wp/dok is the low skillcap. That is not necessarily a bad thing since the majority is pugs here. You will just not see wp/rp or wp/am as often as wp/wp.
The best healers I know more or less all have multiple 32/40 healers. Guess what x2 are always called upon for grps if available? We talk about non pugs here players that do well on whatever healer they play.
So if most skilled/experienced players (your crew included) also slot 2xdok/wp most of the time how can low skillcap really be the problem?
DefinitelyNotWingz wrote:
As I keep stating, the problem with wp/dok is the low skillcap. That is not necessarily a bad thing since the majority is pugs here. You will just not see wp/rp or wp/am as often as wp/wp.
The best healers I know more or less all have multiple 32/40 healers. Guess what x2 are always called upon for grps if available? We talk about non pugs here players that do well on whatever healer they play.
So if most skilled/experienced players (your crew included) slot 2xdok/wp most of the time what has skillcap really to do with them being selected?
Remember what I said when you use dok/dok (respectively wp/wp)? When you are fighting uneven numbers. This is what we are doing 99% of the time and aim for. I even explained why we can do that, because we have a melee dok as st heal. When we played we/ch or we/mara we played with zealot/dok.
Give me the names of the 2 healers and I may tell you why they are not allowed to play st healer.
I think our ideas of what determines a good healers are far apart from each other.
I didn't talk about your crew specifically even though I pointed out that your crew run it as well (x3 actually).
So most players ... and most of the time ... x2 is over represented. Also x0 WP/DOK setups is like well extremely rare.
From my POV this seems true regardless of them being pugs or skilled players and regardless of them doing SCs, Zerging, ORVR or zergbusting like yourself.
Your perspective is that of a pug. Pugs have to play what works best with little to no communication, with little to mediocre skill, with exceptions ofc.
For me the setup I choose heavily relies on what I want to do. For a 6on6 I dont prefer dok/dok, it just wont work. If you feel that dok is overrepresented you might nerf dok, just keep in mind that it is a great nerf to pugs and premades fighting bigger numbers. Actually you would promote zerging, again pug perspective.
That is why we can take the shortcut and you accept some of my statements refering to 6on6.
