DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[Scrilian]

Spoiler:

Well if you claim something don't you like have a burden of proof?
I'm not trying to be rude or troll you for trolling sake, but I mean come on, mate - its like when someone has serious doubts about your "verbal math", you tell him to go f-himself, here are some vague reasons why you already done calculations in the past + some irrelevant piecebite spreadsheet and if I don't take your word for it - google it.

Do the calculations for yourself if you don't believe me. They are easy to do.

And I wouldn't call a table outlining the effective armor penetration buff that Piercing Bite gives to marauders irrelevant when discussing armor penetration of dps classes.

Yes, mate, you are right. I don't believe your "calculations" one bit, if there were any calculations whatsoever to begin with.
But my guess would be that there were none, just some bs from the top of the head just to make your post look like "1000 here and 50% there" real data and not fantasy land. Silly me trying to ask questions tbh

The meta we currently have heavily relies on wp/dok as a factor of stability, changes need to be tested, before they are made! Not discussed with solo players over a few pages on the forums.

Well its always the solo's who are the most vocal on forums, others are just playing the game, preferably in groups.

[Bozzax]

Well if you claim something don't you like have a burden of proof?

Unlike yourself Annalise has contributed so much great value/insights/knowledge in Warhammer forums over the years. My best advice would be to read what he writes carefully.

[Scrilian]

Well if you claim something don't you like have a burden of proof?

Unlike yourself Annalise has contributed so much great value/insights/knowledge in Warhammer forums over they years. My tip would be to read what he writes carefully.

Again, I'm not trying to be a smartass with the guy, I want to know how he got to the results about mitigation and the overall conclusion towards DoK/WPs, because I suck at this games math and would like maybe to learn more about it.
But I find it a bit off-putting to receive to a post quite a bit of generalisation a reply - "just google it yourself brah, i aint gona proof sheeet".

[Annaise16]

Well if you claim something don't you like have a burden of proof?

Unlike yourself Annalise has contributed so much great value/insights/knowledge in Warhammer forums over they years. My tip would be to read what he writes carefully.

Again, I'm not trying to be a smartass with the guy, I want to know how he got to the results about mitigation and the overall conclusion towards DoK/WPs, because I suck at this games math and would like maybe to learn more about it.
But I find it a bit off-putting to receive to a post quite a bit of generalisation a reply - "just google it yourself brah, i aint gona proof sheeet".

My initial reply was sincere. The easiest way to check the mit values I quoted is to look at the values on the paper dolls of your own toons. The alternative IS to check the values on wardb. http://www.arsenalofwar.com/

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

People who are playing healing wp/dok are conning you about medium armor not being a factor in the OPness of these classes. It is a bigger factor than the healing, and a wp/dok in group should be outhealing any cloth healer in their group by a factor of 2 to 1. I'll give you a typical example.

Cloth healer provide better single target heal and offer other ways to decrease the opponents dmg which will not be listed in the scenario chart. Pit and stagger are some of those, also armorbuff/-armorpen and ap drain.
If wp/rp take 25% off the wp heal and add it to the rp heal there we go.
Judging a classes impact based on the sc chart .....

For equal level pieces of gear, medium armor has twice the armor value of its cloth armor equivalent. Typical values will be something like 50% mitigation for medium and 25% mit for cloth. You can slot armor talis in both sets to boost the mit percentages by about 15%. So let the medium armor provide 65% mit with the cloth providing 40% mit.

WP: Devastator 1590, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 3302 = 93,81%
RP: Devastator 795, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 2507 = 71,22%

Difference: 765, RP racial 528, new difference 237 = 6,73% (keep in mind that rp can provide a higher armor buff than the prayer +10% armorpen reduction) If you give me the numbers I am sure you get a 15-20% better armor for rp than for wp, with a greater healoutput thanks to healbless.

People are saying they run their premade with dok/zealot instead of dok/dok because it provides better healing, etc. But it does not go close to providing a better combination of healing and survivability. I can remember some of the best runies/zealots on their server healing in dok/zealot or wp/RP combinations in 6v6s, and they were always the weak link who was the first healer to die and the reason that their team lost. There was only one reason for that, and it wasn't a fault of their healing/kiting/positioning/detaunting/Guarding/intelligence or skill.

Maybe talk to someone with 6on6 experience.

[Annaise16]

People who are playing healing wp/dok are conning you about medium armor not being a factor in the OPness of these classes. It is a bigger factor than the healing, and a wp/dok in group should be outhealing any cloth healer in their group by a factor of 2 to 1. I'll give you a typical example.

Cloth healer provide better single target heal and offer other ways to decrease the opponents dmg which will not be listed in the scenario chart. Pit and stagger are some of those, also armorbuff/-armorpen and ap drain.
If wp/rp take 25% off the wp heal and add it to the rp heal there we go.
Judging a classes impact based on the sc chart .....

For equal level pieces of gear, medium armor has twice the armor value of its cloth armor equivalent. Typical values will be something like 50% mitigation for medium and 25% mit for cloth. You can slot armor talis in both sets to boost the mit percentages by about 15%. So let the medium armor provide 65% mit with the cloth providing 40% mit.

WP: Devastator 1560, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 3272 = 92,95%
RP: Devastator 795, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 2507 = 71,22%

Difference: 765, RP racial 528, new difference 237 = 6,73% (keep in mind that rp can provide a higher armor buff than the prayer +10% armorpen reduction) If you give me the numbers I am sure you get a 15-20% better armor for rp than for wp, with a greater healoutput thanks to healbless.

People are saying they run their premade with dok/zealot instead of dok/dok because it provides better healing, etc. But it does not go close to providing a better combination of healing and survivability. I can remember some of the best runies/zealots on their server healing in dok/zealot or wp/RP combinations in 6v6s, and they were always the weak link who was the first healer to die and the reason that their team lost. There was only one reason for that, and it wasn't a fault of their healing/kiting/positioning/detaunting/Guarding/intelligence or skill.

Maybe talk to someone with 6on6 experience.

So the dwarf gives up a tactic slot and still has less armor than the wp.

The higher the armor values go by stacking talis and pots, the more advantage there is to the medium armor class. The percentage mitigation is not what you should be comparing. It is the percentage difference in incoming damage that is important.

I'll give you an example using your figures of mit and 40% armor penetration.

40% armor penetration reduces the mit percentages to 56% for the wp and 43% for the rp. So for 1000 points of incoming damage, the wp receives 440 points (560 mitigated) and the RP receives 570 points (430 mitigated). so now the rp is taking 130/430 x 100% = 30% more incoming damage than the wp. The rp has gained by stacking more armor, but the wp has gained more by doing the same.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Dude you were simply wrong, deal with it.

Can anyone provide numbers for regenerative shielding? So I can embaress ansi even more.

[Scrilian]

WP: Devastator 1560, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 3272 = 92,95%
RP: Devastator 795, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 2507 = 71,22%

Exactly the thing that rose my concern to Annaise math in the post.
Just a few days ago RP and WP in my group had a chat about armor and how suprised they are to see how close the actual min-maxed values are in now t3, even though one is a clothie and the other is medium. The numbers weren't 3.2k and 2.5k (aint that rich for those 150 tallys) but close still and definitely not 50% and 25%.
That's why when I saw the amount generalization in the post I voiced my concern about it its real or not, maybe not in the best way possible, but geez mate this seems to be imaginary math to me

[Annaise16]

Dude you were simply wrong, deal with it.

No. I was not wrong. In my initial post I was giving the benefit of the doubt to the wp by not stacking a maximum amount of armor talis. I didn't include pots at all. lol.

You simply don't understand how damage and mitigation work in the game. A toon isn't killed by the amounts of damage it mitigates. It is killed by the amount it receives. So those are the values that you have to compare.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

You simply don't understand how damage and mitigation work in the game. A toon isn't killed by the amounts of damage it mitigates. It is killed by the amount it receives. So those are the values that you have to compare.

Lol.

WP: Devastator 1560, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 3272 = 92,95%
RP: Devastator 795, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 2507 = 71,22%

Difference: 765, RP racial 528, new difference 237 = 6,73% (keep in mind that rp can provide a higher armor buff than the prayer +10% armorpen reduction) If you give me the numbers I am sure you get a 15-20% better armor for rp than for wp, with a greater healoutput thanks to healbless.

RP is at 3,27% more mitigation than wp, not even counting the higher armor buff of regenerative shielding compared to prayer.

Higher mitigation = longer life

Just end this right here, say " sorry I was wrong " and refrain from not backing up your claims with calculated numbers.
Then we are fine.