Shaman Discussion, more

[Sulorie]

Thats for RR 70, kinda long road ahead.

Anyway thx for proving that there arent many good DPS tactics (forgot about Git Outta here as its really situatiuonal and good Shaman should not get himself into position to use Eeeek! (Except for trolling and puntin stunties in lava or from the cliff )).

If u dont have SH around u go for Gork Barbz,... I dont really understand why so many ppl complain about it, when I use it the opposition usualy melts away.

There are 4 tactic slots, how many "DPS tactics" you want to slot, when you already have to skip tactics?

The aoe KB is one of 2 skills to counter melees. When you rarely use it, then you might hide behind meatwalls for to long. It is vital for roaming.

It's a healdebuff on a long cooldown, which does mediocre damage on healers, who heal the debuffed target. Shamans already have little dots to cover it to prevent cleansing.
Pre 40/70 it might be ok to spec it, because there is nothing else useful.
They melt like they melt with any healdebuff but the issue is, the shaman one is one of the worst.

[roadkillrobin]

Healing Shaman completly lacks synnergy. Ressistance buff that allready overlaps with Chosen/BO/Zealots. I've sugested to change this one to be a flat 5% Disrupt/Dodge instead.
They also have massive AP issues. Yer Not so Bad should either be undefdeble or cost 0 AP due to the lack of intelect in healing build and then there's the lack of heals if Shaman gets under any kinda pressure. Zealot/RP have their super buff to deal with this. AM got their Detaunt to deal with this. WP/DoK have their low cast times/armor. Shaman is basicly screwed and need to run away Meaning if you're solo healing a group, they won't get any heals until you're safe again. If that preassure is a WL, your group is pretty much dead.

DPS Shamans plays pretty much the same as a Calmity sorc but with alot less DMG. It's a really boring spec and everytime i play it i just wish i played my Sorc instead.

[Sulorie]

He managed to put a legit complaint about stat dependencies of utility spells (low offensive attributes of healers lead to failure of non-damaging spells) together with a huge pile if junk.

[Morf]

Im not sure changing sticky feetz/mom is the way to go, more so making sham/am mechanics useful in some way other then a gheal every 5 secs in a dps spec.
A change to gorks barbs would be nice, maybe changing it to work exactly the same as scatter winds ?

As a dps sham you really need max mastery points to be effective otherwise you either have decent dps while being super squishy with little to no CC to defend yourself or you go a bit more def using sticky feetz and dsu and suffer from low dps output.

As for ppl saying this is temp cap so nothing should be done about it, 2h wp got an aoe detaunt because they underperform so i see no reason to not help other classes who also suffer from the lack of mastery points needed to be somewhat viable, im not saying dps shamans are but the argument seems void when 2h wp was changed.

[Qwack]

Healing Shaman completly lacks synnergy. Ressistance buff that allready overlaps with Chosen/BO/Zealots. I've sugested to change this one to be a flat 5% Disrupt/Dodge instead.
They also have massive AP issues. Yer Not so Bad should either be undefdeble or cost 0 AP due to the lack of intelect in healing build and then there's the lack of heals if Shaman gets under any kinda pressure. Zealot/RP have their super buff to deal with this. AM got their Detaunt to deal with this. WP/DoK have their low cast times/armor. Shaman is basicly screwed and need to run away Meaning if you're solo healing a group, they won't get any heals until you're safe again. If that preassure is a WL, your group is pretty much dead.

DPS Shamans plays pretty much the same as a Calmity sorc but with alot less DMG. It's a really boring spec and everytime i play it i just wish i played my Sorc instead.

There is a bit of a synergy issue when speaking in terms of a 6 man. With regard to the Shaman's resistance buff, the Chosen can run another aura. Balance issues will understandably not consider small groups, but there is actually a good synergy with like 3 man groups, especially with Squig Herders and Sorcs, even WEs and Mars at times. Basically the type of classes that can be light-of-foot.

I agree that Yer Not so Bad should cost 0 AP or be undefendable. Its a real two-edged sword at times in its current state, especially for an AP dependent healer. As a DPSer, a Shaman can move more freely to find better targets to AP tap.

Kiting is great in many circumstances, but not when you need to stay in range of your group and pop off group heals or such.

[Gobtar]

More or less the only problem the shaman has is destroy confidence.
Which I hope will be looked at in t4.
Other than that heal shaman is great.

They have some major AP issues until better tactics and even then, have to wait till sov to fix that.
They can't cleanse Bright Wizards so they are a bottom tier healer choice.
Destroy Confidence will indeed be a problem unless it's fixed in time.
Multi-Atribute Dependancy- Healing Shammies in tier 4 will have a hard time keeping that AP drain up...something they need because aforementioned AP issues.
Their broken mechanic means being a dedicated healer and trying to incorporate life taps is a waste of AP and time.
Extremely limited on tactics: Restorative Burst, Ain't done yet, eats up two tactics, despite the Racial RUN AWAY! and WBY being awesome it's really hard to fit them in... basically all other tactics are looked over because of this need.
Hybrid is unplayable.

As for DPS:
Yes the Shaman is amazing 1v1 or 1v2, but honestly I couldn't care less about this, even the greatest shamans will get looked over when putting together a competitive group, leading to more shamans soloing, it's a vicious cycle. The AMs continue to slip by, being the king of solo and being an unattractive alternative in all other respects. Blessed are the DPS shamans that heal with lifetaps, but most are too bad to know how to do this effectively.

[Penril]

What if you dont have a Chosen in your group? What if you run with a BO/BG? What if you run a Chosen but he has no points in Discord tree?

[Penril]

More or less the only problem the shaman has is destroy confidence.
Which I hope will be looked at in t4.
Other than that heal shaman is great.

They have some major AP issues until better tactics and even then, have to wait till sov to fix that.
They can't cleanse Bright Wizards so they are a bottom tier healer choice.
Destroy Confidence will indeed be a problem unless it's fixed in time.
Multi-Atribute Dependancy- Healing Shammies in tier 4 will have a hard time keeping that AP drain up...something they need because aforementioned AP issues.
Their broken mechanic means being a dedicated healer and trying to incorporate life taps is a waste of AP and time.
Extremely limited on tactics: Restorative Burst, Ain't done yet, eats up two tactics, despite the Racial RUN AWAY! and WBY being awesome it's really hard to fit them in... basically all other tactics are looked over because of this need.
Hybrid is unplayable.

As for DPS:
Yes the Shaman is amazing 1v1 or 1v2, but honestly I couldn't care less about this, even the greatest shamans will get looked over when putting together a competitive group, leading to more shamans soloing, it's a vicious cycle. The AMs continue to slip by, being the king of solo and being an unattractive alternative in all other respects. Blessed are the DPS shamans that heal with lifetaps, but most are too bad to know how to do this effectively.

I think DPS Shamans have a spot in a 1 3 2 setup, helping with extra cleanse/snare puddles/AP drain/extra rez/ok-ish DPS. Several classes that seem "useless" actually shine in certain setups.

As for effectively healing with lifetaps, can it be done? I have tried and failed. I think healing/dps Shamans are fine, but their lifetap healing is not enough to keep a group alive. Even Doks/WPs can do a better job (imho) with Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence. But Shaman/AM? They lack a AoE lifetap, and some skills/tactics like Fury of Da Green, Energy of Vaul and Arcing Power seem kinda "meh".

What are your thoughts?

[Qwack]

Im not sure changing sticky feetz/mom is the way to go, more so making sham/am mechanics useful in some way other then a gheal every 5 secs in a dps spec.
A change to gorks barbs would be nice, maybe changing it to work exactly the same as scatter winds ?

As a dps sham you really need max mastery points to be effective otherwise you either have decent dps while being super squishy with little to no CC to defend yourself or you go a bit more def using sticky feetz and dsu and suffer from low dps output.

As for ppl saying this is temp cap so nothing should be done about it, 2h wp got an aoe detaunt because they underperform so i see no reason to not help other classes who also suffer from the lack of mastery points needed to be somewhat viable, im not saying dps shamans are but the argument seems void when 2h wp was changed.

Ya Morfee, making Sticky Feetz an ability is not an optimal buff for DPS Shammies. I was approaching this problem from a coder's viewpoint. Expediency and efficiency in code will be necessary. Once all the balances issues get addressed for all the classes, the developers will be swamped. Just testing all the changes to all the classes and how it all interacts is going to be mammoth. Moving Sticky Feetz to an ability is a minor coding change compared to recoding and testing an assortment of abilities. No DPS/Util abilities would actually change, but getting 6 points to spend in the proper lines is a decent buff. Healing is another matter.

I am hesitant to want change in Gork's Barbs. The damage back on healers is useful. Its not really the damage result, but I can tell who and how many, if any, are healing my target as damage indicators float above the healers. While this is not useful for a pure 6v6, it does help for a variety of other match ups, especially in SCs.

[Gobtar]

I think DPS Shamans have a spot in a 1 3 2 setup, helping with extra cleanse/snare puddles/AP drain/extra rez/ok-ish DPS. Several classes that seem "useless" actually shine in certain setups.

As for effectively healing with lifetaps, can it be done? I have tried and failed. I think healing/dps Shamans are fine, but their lifetap healing is not enough to keep a group alive. Even Doks/WPs can do a better job (imho) with Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence. But Shaman/AM? They lack a AoE lifetap, and some skills/tactics like Fury of Da Green, Energy of Vaul and Arcing Power seem kinda "meh".

What are your thoughts?

I agree with you that there is a place in a 1-3-2 but honestly it's a mediocre setup and as I am sure you are already aware, it puts a ton more stress on the tank. in T4 Destro can get away with this a little bit more if you are running a SnB Chosen or BO with Morale booster. Even in that set up the shaman is still fighting tooth and nail for that spot with SH or even Sorc,

I tried a hybrid healer on live...you just have too many stats to increase, not enough tactics slots, and you are utterly mediocre. You'z Squishy could have been a AoE lifetap, considering it's your level 40 ability it is very meh in it's current form, mostly thanks to the Cancer that is Chosen/KotBS. Think that playing around with the mechanic might help solve the Shaman's hybrid problems. Sad thing is you can see it working it T1 and T2 but it just dies off and you are NOT rewarded for continuing this play style