[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[Azarael]

Floating isn't detrimental at all, but when one of your healers is melee, you're putting one of your lifelines in the front line for everyone to hit, all the time. That kind of situation demands far, far more from the tanks than, say, a Salvation priest in the backline.

[ThePollie]

Floating isn't detrimental at all, but when one of your healers is melee, you're putting one of your lifelines in the front line for everyone to hit, all the time. That kind of situation demands far, far more from the tanks than, say, a Salvation priest in the backline.

Exactly.

If a Witch Elf tries to jump a back-line healer, they have one massive issue. The entire team is going to know they have one vulnerable enemy cut off from the main force and can turn around and smash them.

If that Witch Elf attacked a front-line Grace healer, not only do they have their entire team there to help train them if the attack goes well, but is within range of Guard on a moment's notice if a counter-play is made against them.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

I know that you are trying to be constructive and polite as well Tesq, but the problem is that you simply ignore too many points and arguments that were stated about the WP in grace specc (and basically in every other topic so far as well).

Statements like

WP is not a melee healer is a dps that can heal his primary aim should be do damages not heal while /tank the world

are simply NOT wished to be seen in the balance forum (you are free to post them here if you wish to - but it will still remain untrue). It has been said several times that >Grace< Is NOT a dps tree but a support tree and the discussion basically is about how to make >Grace< viable or playable. If you say stuff like "But WP is DPS and can Tank" you basically miss the whole point.

You basically state that WP is unkillable,can Heal and Dmg like a god, but that is just unbased and untrue. You can either deal a mediocre amount of dmg as Wrath WP, but have literally no heal. You can be an aoe healspambot in the Grace tree, but get completely countered by guard/armor stackers and generally deal close to no dmg anyways, or you just go full salvation and be a Godlike healer. Everything here has its issues, but thats not the point either.

The discussion in the Balance forum here would basically look like:
*Someone says X and Y in grace tree is sh*t and offers a few suggestions on how to try and fix X and Y.
*Someone else says why X and Y are bad solutions and either comes up with solutions A and B , or just debunks X and Y and let the topic starter think about other solutions.

This can be repeated a few times and then we'll see at the outcome when everyone is done talking.
What you are doing though, is pretty much going offtopic and stating unrelevant stuff and issues that do either not contribute to the direct matter, or are just coming from hearsay or are simply wrong.

that because i asserted that the way you approach to fix the wp is incorrect for me, grace is as you sad a support path and so this is totaly imcopatible for what you want to accomplish, reading what i was asnwering via pm to aza maybe will make me more clear.

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I tried to avoid it the more i could but it end as very big text wall if you want jump directly to the conclussion but you could not understand something as it's a very big relation.

Spoiler:

"Grace WP is a melee healer, not a DPS that can heal."
grace wp is a dps that want to heal but to do that he need to be durable but he cannot do all alone by himself. It mean having no damage and using a risky playstile for something that anyother healer can do sitting in the backlines = no spot in the party.


"Grace WP trades offhand regeneration, casted heals and heal range for the ability to deal damage while it heals."

Not true you can go double mastery in t4 and you can still use other healing stuff as aoe heals, they became uneffective if you also slot the damage tactic, and anyway if you even go full offensive wp will also still have a 20% healing crit chance (30% with crit + parry tactic) thx to base heal crit chance + kobs tactic.( and it also have a +20% healing tactic after parry for 10 seconds).
This is not a trade off at all it's a different playstyle, instead regen behind the meccanic points you go in the brawl and not only regen the meccanic but you also do damage which mean you not only do what you are suppose to do theorically but you also do some damages. Then ye there is a stats problem, but ehi you cannot be god.


"It does not matter whether a class is difficult to kill when it is in melee if its function can be negated or severely weakened through many counters"

What counter? the only counter is death, if you hit something and you dont kill it you are wasting ap and time, and enemy party/wb will kill you instead.The very reason why tank can move freely si because they are ingored appart from opponents snares/punt.
The only real counter to a guard wp that it can also use an aoe detaunt is a snare + super punt and it's the super punt that is op ( just wait that also chosen/kobs can use it every 10 sec, it will be a punt festa :/) and anyway other party member can still benefith from the heals of the punted wp while they close the gap to him to nullify the punt or the snare.


"Survivability is necessary for a 5 ft healer to operate."

Never said nothing aganst this, just you cannot do all by yourself, if wp want damage + heal he need to be guard , if he want to hit ppl around but he dosen't care for the damages he make but he still want stay in the front line he need to work exatly as a tank and so heavy armor and guard skill to protect a damage dealer. Otherwise is just a fail tank cos it have not guard.( and possible the de-taunt should apply as a challenge, that way it would be a very nice alternative to a classic war tank.
Otherwise you end having a too risky vs low rewards healer or a too low /no risk broken one. And in a game with so much damages around and so many strong heals you would need to nerf both before see any not backline healer behviour differently.


"2/2/2 is exactly the kind of rigid crap that balance should aim to break."

-2/2/2 it's what give to the game more or less an internal balance to the party composition, you would hardly see less than 2x tank or less than 2x healer cos they are too much important due to guard (that is mandatory) and the need of have a backup heals if the first one is focussed. The lack 2/2/2 guide line for the party composition would results like any other game in flaw system or at least this is what i saw and what i think. IF ppl remained on war and returned over time is for the combat system, 2-2-2 is fine.
Break the 2/2/2 system will only ruin the game ( alternative party composition can be found but with a max 6 ppl x party war fighting system can only work with 2-2-2).
Unless you want to increase the size party to 7 which would mean have a 1 trick choice a 6 max ppl party will always have 2-2-2 no matter what you do. It dosen't also matter what you do any not 2 pure healer and not 2 tank party explode under aoe in this game.
The 2-2-2 system make the game extremly EASY to balance everything have his place, and everything can be judge of how bad or good it's doing in his job. The fact that some specs or classes are subpar it does not mean the system is bad. It's one of the best i ever seen so far indeed.


" As it is a healer, having it reliant on Guard weakens its ..."

not if it's primary role its being a dps or being a tank, if you make him able to guard and also heal you have a value off tanks, if you have wp doing good damage but also heal you also have a better party more suited to stay prolonged in the frontlines over the aoe.


" Tanks are not about the ability to take damage. Being a moving brick is worthless. It is what the tank provides for his group that is his essence."

and how do you plan to provide this? being able to freely move around is the primary aim of a tank, if you are squigshy you are giving a kill to the enemys due to guard damages + yours.
Loose a tank it's even worst than loose a healer sometimes. Not been able to freely move around mean badder cc, badder assist, badder bodyblock, badder guard range.


" I have absolutely no interest in seeing Grace WP hit like a MDPS."

and so in which way you wanna boost it? if you wanna make him able to be tanky and heal NO one will ever take a grace wp. Cos you would have a risky healer in the front line or may end to create a overpowered unkillable monster that everyone will reroll.

it's easier ( for balance it)

-give it guard
-armor increase when use 2h

so that it can be taken in the place of another tank and it heal instead use cc; with 2 mastery WP in t4 would be an offensive tank- healer paladin style with out be outside of the 2-2-2- party composition.


"2/2/2 can theoretically be broken by treating tanking, DPS and healing as a spectrum such that pure tank / dps tank / dps / hybrid healer / healer / healer becomes a valid composition, for example. However, as Grace WP is not a hybrid for me, I'm not classing it as hybrid healer here"

-An offensive wp can work very fine with a off tank atm indeed as have both offensive but with the WP that can heal make them do the same damage of a def tank and a off dps, a defensive wp set to heal in melee have no utility, cos it does no damage, it still require a guard to not implode vs the opponents as guard > aoe detaunt.(obviusly both are even better). So grace wp is just a Fail alternative tank path imo.

-2/2/2 it's what give to the game more or less an internal balance to the party composition you would hardly see less than 2x tank or less than 2x healer cos they are too much important due to guard (that is mandatory) and the need of have a backup heals if the first one is focussed. The lack 2/2/2 guideline for the party composition would results like in any other game flaw system or at least this is what i saw and what i think.
Break the 2/2/2 system will olyl ruin the game ( alternative party composition can be found like slot a offensive wp/dok + 1 offensive tank, but with a max 6 ppl x party war fighting system can only work with 2-2-2).
Unless you want to increase the size party to 7 which would mean have a 1 trick choice a 6 max ppl party will always have 2-2-2 no matter what you do. It dosen't also matter what you do any not 2 healer and not 2 tank party explode under aoe in this game.

-You can have 2 mixed classes work togheter as the above exemple 2h front line wp healer and an offensive tank , they cover their weakness with half of the other stuff and they so work. But you cannot have a no damage wp try to heal in the front line, you just loose damage if he get guard and you just explode under the aoe if 5 ppl of the party appart from 1 backline healer try to push. WP/Dok as pure healer are second line healer, they have an aoe frontal rec but they do not need to stay melee 100% of the time in fact they do not have the same armor of a tank. the more a class go frontline the more it need a better armor and defense, if you want see the wp played as a truly front line healer you need to make it a tank with good damage and that it can heal instead of cc, which mean also give him a guard and challenge

Conclusion:
Grace path is a remnant of the alpha phase wp of the game, a tank wp, there is NO such support melee/damage dealer in game, only support tank:

-make the wp grace path a tank path
-make him able to guard and heal (this mean a support wp will take a tank place in the 2-2-2 party composition)
-the guard should appropriate reduce the heal the wp can throw to not have it op but it should give to wp a heavy armor
-The detaunt should work as a challenge while using guard

that way you can effectivly use a wp as support class which in this games are tanks.
There are no other supports classes. SO a support path on a not tank class mean that class spec in that path is useless or it's only a good 2nd mastery after the primary.

it's pretty easy balance the heals as you just have to debuff Em even more with the guard buff. Link all to the chance to guard (or make 1 buff that is active that do all of this and as downside lower your heals while leave guard indipendently) mean that this cannot be abused as you get both benefith from the path and malus while and only if the guard is active(or that buff). This was not a my idea and i was against it the time i red it but after a lot of time i find this fine since the ror team would fastly fix it if it's OP.

The biggest contr is that it require a total rewamp of the path but there is no other way a support path on melee not tank class will be used in a party composition.

[Azarael]

Point by point:

- Isn't this exactly the problem? Having no damage and using a risky playstyle for something other healers can do while sitting in the back lines? Isn't that exactly what we're trying to stop?

- You can go double mastery if you want, but if you're Grace you're stacking Strength - so you can enjoy having your casted heals annihilated by Divine Fury plus a lack of Willpower, which a lot of the WP heals scale quite well with. Additionally, if you're sitting on the frontlines, you're exposing yourself much more to melee and ranged heal debuffs which further impact your usefulness with casted heals - and they'll stack with Divine Fury, too.

- The counters have been listed way back in this thread. Parry, block and absorb stop your heal. Guard and detaunts halve your heal. High armor mitigation wrecks the heal further. Not being able to reach a target because you're snared wrecks the heal. Being punted miles away wrecks the heal. Challenge eats into the heal. There are so many ways to counter lifetap heals from every class, not just WP.

- I disagree that Guard is the only mechanism by which a class can support, but that's beside the point anyway since I'm not looking at seeing Grace be a true hybrid.

- By breaking 2/2/2 I'm not talking about creating lunatic compositions, I'm talking about giving leeway in how the fundamental parts of a 2/2/2 are constructed by allowing hybrids to combine with each other within this setup.

- Its primary role isn't a DPS or a tank, though.

- I want to boost it by reducing the impact of the plethora of counters which exist. The difference between playing Grace WP against a PUG and against premades is like night and day because so many factors combine against you. Grace WP should fail by being burnt out of its RF reserves at range or by running out of AP in melee - that should be how to deal with it. It shouldn't get wrecked just for entering melee range and it shouldn't become a brick because it got punted with full RF (and yes - I meant to say "full RF" here).

So, if you ask me what I'd try? I'd block Supplication for Grace (offering Divine Strike instead) and grant a buff which copies bonuses from Str onto Willpower, possibly stacking, every time you strike an enemy in melee. Your game plan therefore revolves around managing front line and middle / back line positions.

[BrosephStylin]

Point by point:

- Isn't this exactly the problem? Having no damage and using a risky playstyle for something other healers can do while sitting in the back lines? Isn't that exactly what we're trying to stop?

- You can go double mastery if you want, but if you're Grace you're stacking Strength - so you can enjoy having your casted heals annihilated by lack of Willpower, which a lot of the WP heals scale quite well with. Additionally, if you're sitting on the frontlines, you're exposing yourself much more to melee and ranged heal debuffs which further impact your usefulness with casted heals.

- The counters have been listed way back in this thread. Parry, block and absorb stop your heal. Guard and detaunts halve your heal. High armor mitigation wrecks the heal further. Not being able to reach a target because you're snared wrecks the heal. Being punted miles away wrecks the heal. Challenge eats into the heal. There are so many ways to counter lifetap heals from every class, not just WP.

- I disagree that Guard is the only mechanism by which a class can support, but that's beside the point anyway since I'm not looking at seeing Grace be a true hybrid.

- By breaking 2/2/2 I'm not talking about creating lunatic compositions, I'm talking about giving leeway in how the fundamental parts of a 2/2/2 are constructed by allowing hybrids to combine with each other within this setup.

- Its primary role isn't a DPS or a tank, though.

- I want to boost it by reducing the impact of the plethora of counters which exist. The difference between playing Grace WP against a PUG and against premades is like night and day because so many factors combine against you. Grace WP should fail by being burnt out of its RF reserves at range or by running out of AP in melee - that should be how to deal with it. It shouldn't get wrecked just for entering melee range and it shouldn't become a brick because it got punted with full RF.

So, if you ask me what I'd try? I'd block Supplication and Divine Mend for Grace (offering Divine Strike in its place) and grant a buff which copies bonuses from Str onto Willpower, possibly stacking, every time you strike an enemy in melee. Your game plan therefore revolves around managing front line and middle / back line positions.

In our warband, a grace healer never takes a heal slot, because they can never match the range healers. They are always put into a dps slot, so whether you like it or not, they will always be seen as dps. The only way you change that, is if you remove the melee aspect completely, which is ruining the spec.

Scenarios are slightly different, with them given some leeway for their slotted role because they can heal a little more often that orvr.

[ThePollie]

Parry, block and absorb stop your heal. Guard and detaunts halve your heal. High armor mitigation wrecks the heal further. Not being able to reach a target because you're snared wrecks the heal. Being punted miles away wrecks the heal. Challenge eats into the heal. There are so many ways to counter lifetap heals from every class, not just WP.

Addressing this specifically, since a lot of people don't seem to grasp this.

Radiance heals for, without Grace of Sigmar, 306 health +50% of damage dealt, and hits for roughly 400 damage. Say 500 with Divine Fury, which you will have. That's 556 health restored per strike.

Against medium armour, no armour buffs or the like, that 500 is now gutted for about 45%. You now hit for 275.

Heal reduced to 443. Guard reduces the damage by further by 50%. Now you hit for about 130 damage, healing reduced to about 368, give or take a bit from Toughness nicking off a few points.

368 heal per strike is what you get for risking yourself on the front line. Meanwhile, Salvation is only mitigated by incoming and out-going heal debuffs.

Additionally, parry negates 100% of your healing. A block negates 100% of your healing. If you are disarmed, you are not healing. Punted, not healing anymore. Knocked-down? You guessed it, not healing. Probably dead, too.

If someone wants to counter a back-line healer, they either have to get back there and kill them or use a heal-debuff. Grace can be counted simply by having their target face them with a measurable amount of parry, which is not difficult to achieve.

In our warband, a grace healer never takes a heal slot, because they can never match the range healers. They are always put into a dps slot, so whether you like it or not, they will always be seen as dps. The only way you change that, is if you remove the melee aspect completely, which is ruining the spec.

Key word there - Warband.

[Azarael]

And that's just for Radiance, which has the base heal to save itself.

Divine Assault gets absolutely BLASTED by damage reductions and resists, because its heal factor is 100% linked to the damage it deals.

[BrosephStylin]

Key word there - Warband.

Yes, the now normal means of orvring, which the majority of players partake in. If the majority doesn't matter, then this thread is useless.

[Tesq]

uhmm i get your point but you cannot just try to make grace wp work with out give him a role in the party composition, and make it viable but still leave him out from the premades composition; you cannot make it just viable otherwise the time spent on his fix it's just wasted, you need to make him viable in a good sc group and also in WB set up.


Anyway even if you remove the counters that wp have you still have a risky healer just in the mouth of enemys front lines.
It still get focus first and it still die first. Unless it's durable as a tank in the aoe aka take very low damage anyway. Which would make it op and a lot. So just better make it a tank at this point for me.
Less problem related to classic party composition, less balance factor to take into account, more option for wp player, a healer tank in every game it's a magnet player it would also make the game more interesting for new player.

anyway if that is what you really want to achive, undefitable attacks or undefitable healing components + immunity to KD/disarm is what you should value.

But i hardly see it viable anyway, heal debuff and 2 taunt and you probably kill 1/2 healer of enemy party with good focus. Aoe wont allow efficently guard swap and so have a healer in the aoe is bad sight in any way you put it.

[ThePollie]

And that's just for Radiance, which has the base heal to save itself.

Divine Assault gets absolutely BLASTED by damage reductions and resists, because its heal factor is 100% linked to the damage it deals.

Exactly. Radiance will always heal at least 307 health, no matter how much mitigation you have.

Divine Assault relies entirely on damage dealt. Granted, it attacks Spirit resistance, which is marginally easier to attack through. Parry and block still counters it, Absorbs negate it entirely, and its still a melee ability. Range shuts it down.

Roughly 300 damage per strike, 350% heal per strike. It has the potential to heal a lot. Resistance auras, Spirit resistance potions, and high toughness are more than enough to reduce this ability to actually heal less than Radiance. And there is nothing a Grace priest can do about any of it. You have to rely entirely on you enemy not to have those defenses or are forced to make room for a Knight and Swordmaster for spirit resist debuffs. Two group slot choices dedicated just so you can use one attack.

Yes, the now normal means of orvring, which the majority of players partake in. If the majority doesn't matter, then this thread is useless.

I don't ever want to see this game balanced around 24v24 or 48v48. I frankly don't see it possibly, anyway.

uhmm i get your point but you cannot just try to make grace wp work with out give him a role in the party composition, and make it viable but still leave him t out from the premades composition; even if you remove the counters that wp have you still have a risky healer just in the mouth of enemys front lines.

Grace is a healer with the ability to contribute some damage during the course of their role. That is their role. They're a healer. They heal people.