[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[ThePollie]

why should not a wp have a perma guard, it's not a tank it's stil la dps..

Because you can't kill anything. That tank and two healers can keep you alive forever if they want, but it does the team no good because you can't actually do anything. Even Wrath would be hard pressed to kill anything short of an unassisted squishy class, which is less them doing well and more of the enemy doing poorly.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

A slayer has a permanent guard and two healers backing him up. Swings and roundabouts, completely.

why should not a wp have a perma guard, it's not a tank it's stil la dps.

if the aoe detaunt buff was to make him be able to stay with out guard that is not something smart, as need offensive capacity , defensive capacty and heal capacity, it will always need to have a guard.

You just make it a stone wall that can heal with lol dps or you make it a nice dps with less damages that allow 1 x tank to spec offensive due the guard damge reduction + the aoe de-taunt. You cannot make it

dps
tank
and healer

all in the same build.

There exist so many counters to the melee method of healing already that claiming that Grace is somehow a "healer, tank and DPS" is misleading. Do you define a tank by resilience? I don't. I define it by what it contributes to the battle. I don't see Guard, or Challenge, or spammable snares, or ST long knockback or any of the other core reasons to bring a tank. As for the DPS, those high numbers you see in pug SCs are put up in the same way that a tank puts them up - low sustained damage over a long time. I don't think that qualifies a Grace WP to be considered some kind of awesome DPS either. Lastly, ordinary heals have a casted range of 150ft, with 100ft for the group heal. If a class is going to have to heal at 5ft, it had better have the survivability it needs to ensure that it doesn't just spend all its time healing itself, not to mention that you are exposing yourself to every single debuff under the sun.

I beg to ask... have you ever actually tried playing this class?

It feel to me that classes and the ppl that want it fix suffer the paladin syndrome.... aka character that from the background done good damage/heals / and are durable.

What you mean by" for heal he need to arrive in melee"? all mdps need to do that. WP is not a melee healer is a dps that can heal his primary aim should be do damages not heal while /tank the world... for obvious reasons.
If you have 2x healer as anyother guarded dps do you will arrive in cc with 0 problem. (appart be kited due to lack of cc immunity, but look you have self heal that cover for this and self cleanse). IF they hit with mdps you are alredy in cc; melee trains are better than casters which mean you really have few problems vs caster due self hot, guard anyway and self cleanse.

No i never played offensive dok/wp i admit but even if i would i would find 0 premade here to test anything coz it's happend the same for the magus.
For me anyway it's inccorrect the approach to these changes. You are pushing too many direction at once, it feel to me that instead trying to make it a class that can do anything you should give him a propper place in the 2-2-2 party set up.


I red about wp not being able to perform well if not guarded which is a bad statement cos this game run with 2-2-2 party composition; you better fix the class than rewamp all the system which also mean fix other classes aswell.
Decide in which of this place 2h wp must stay, tank , dps or healer then decide how balance it, if offensive wp is a dps 1 tank will have to guard him stop.
You can't anyway make a wp hit like a choppa/slayer ST then be hard to kill with no guard as a tank then be able to self heal himself as a healer[/u]

You should first decide a place where put the 2h/dual weild wp/dok, and for sure is not being an un-guarded person inside the party or a 1 that cannot guard. You have 3 archtype to pick, decide what wp/dok need to be when they play with 2h/dual weild: tank/dps/healer.


A)They can be tanky but they will never take the place of a tank in this game cos they cannot guard and you will always use 2x tanks as the buff their provide partywise are too good to be ingored.

B)They will never be taken as dps as if their damages suck but have not a nice tradeoff.

C)Unless you wanna make their damages lol but make them shoot 500% of the damage they do as group heals they will never be good melee-healers.

- You could make them offensive tanks : they would be tanks that can self heals, which mean give em with 2h /dual weild an increase in armor value ,making them hard to kill and have a nice % increase for his melee heal, only for himself. He would be a tank that trade his cc for more damage; instead being a tank as the other that can cc and be durable, it would be a tank that it's durable + do damages and doing damage he also soak damages due to self heals. You would have a raw powerfull tank in defense and in offense. Simply that.(this option it really nice , create diversisty, and it's nearer to what wp had been thinked like; but it's hard to implement in the currently state of the server and for the rewamp it require,so pass over it)

-Or make it a melee dps that can heal which mean he do less damages but have more substain and so 1 tank in his group can spec more offensive(which is the easier and the one you should going for atm).

-the stone wall melee healer would be op or crap, so don't think about it.

Any other multy direction buff would make the class op as any general D&D paladin through ages. Or anyway still make the class good but it would stills truggle to find propper place in the 2-2-2 system war use. And it would isntead requrie a unique party composition which is hard to obaint missing valueable buff here and there from other classes.

Sy for the text wall.

[ThePollie]

WP is not a melee healer is a dps that can heal his primary aim should be do damages not heal while /tank the world...

I stopped reading there.

[noisestorm]

I read about 10 lines.. but stopped after as well.

Tesq. I'll tell you in advance - if you are going to post stuff like this on the Balance forum i will personally see you banned from the forums for a while. Keep that in mind.

[Tesq]

Well mine was a polite, costructive post and i wasn't ripetitive; i didn't flame nor troll so i dont get why. But k i will keep it mind.

[Azarael]

Rapid fire.

- Grace WP is a melee healer, not a DPS that can heal.

- Grace WP trades offhand regeneration, casted heals and heal range for the ability to deal damage while it heals.

- It does not matter whether a class is difficult to kill when it is in melee if its function can be negated or severely weakened through many counters.

- Survivability is necessary for a 5 ft healer to operate.

- 2/2/2 is exactly the kind of rigid crap that balance should aim to break.

- As it is a healer, having it reliant on Guard weakens its composition.

- Tanks are not about the ability to take damage. Being a moving brick is worthless. It is what the tank provides for his group that is his essence.

- I have absolutely no interest in seeing Grace WP hit like a MDPS.

- 2/2/2 can theoretically be broken by treating tanking, DPS and healing as a spectrum such that pure tank / dps tank / dps / hybrid healer / healer / healer becomes a valid composition, for example. However, as Grace WP is not a hybrid for me, I'm not classing it as hybrid healer here.

[Tesq]

i will answer to aza via pm.

[Azarael]

You will not be sanctioned for anything you say in this thread. It's important that the discussion remains publicly visible.

[noisestorm]

I know that you are trying to be constructive and polite as well Tesq, but the problem is that you simply ignore too many points and arguments that were stated about the WP in grace specc (and basically in every other topic so far as well).

Statements like

WP is not a melee healer is a dps that can heal his primary aim should be do damages not heal while /tank the world

are simply NOT wished to be seen in the balance forum (you are free to post them here if you wish to - but it will still remain untrue). It has been said several times that >Grace< Is NOT a dps tree but a support tree and the discussion basically is about how to make >Grace< viable or playable. If you say stuff like "But WP is DPS and can Tank" you basically miss the whole point.

You basically state that WP is unkillable,can Heal and Dmg like a god, but that is just unbased and untrue. You can either deal a mediocre amount of dmg as Wrath WP, but have literally no heal. You can be an aoe healspambot in the Grace tree, but get completely countered by guard/armor stackers and generally deal close to no dmg anyways, or you just go full salvation and be a Godlike healer. Everything here has its issues, but thats not the point either.

The discussion in the Balance forum here would basically look like:
*Someone says X and Y in grace tree is sh*t and offers a few suggestions on how to try and fix X and Y.
*Someone else says why X and Y are bad solutions and either comes up with solutions A and B , or just debunks X and Y and let the topic starter think about other solutions.

This can be repeated a few times and then we'll see at the outcome when everyone is done talking.
What you are doing though, is pretty much going offtopic and stating unrelevant stuff and issues that do either not contribute to the direct matter, or are just coming from hearsay or are simply wrong.

[TenTonHammer]

If i may ask az how excatly is it detrimental if tank has to float a heal onto a healer?

Even in standard play if you get jumped by a WE/WH is it not normal to call to you team and even get guard for a short duration?