[Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

[Azarael]

I do not intend to push this change in light of what I've just said above. I just want to make it clear, before the balance forum opens, that any topic regarding any class will focus on the class's internal balance before anything else.

I'm just going to create the forum, lock it and post the lead so that people know in advance what they'll be dealing with.

[Penril]

I do not intend to push this change in light of what I've just said above. I just want to make it clear, before the balance forum opens, that any topic regarding any class will focus on the class's internal balance before anything else.

I'm just going to create the forum, lock it and post the lead so that people know in advance what they'll be dealing with.

Yeah, i understood that. And i realized that my only objection to any further WP buffs was the fact that they already had received one while Doks didnt. But if i look at the WP class individually, without taking a look at all the other 23 classes... yeah, they need the 50% inc HD.

[Luranni]

I'd like to note that when the balance forum opens, which will be soon, it will be infractable to derail any topic on one class by talking about how other classes need attention first.

When everything is laid out and organised neatly on shiny new balance forums, every single class should have an active discussion on the go including dev input so I can't see why it would be a problem anyway then.

I still don't think giving the WP this change is the right thing to do as the changes required to make melee-WP more lore-friendly, more viable and more FUN should be solved in a much more creative and spec-defining way.

Having said that I don't think the WP would become 100% broken OP with the change, I just don't agree with this "Gimme all the DPS toys" approach when I think everyone would love to see a richer development to the melee WP.

[Azarael]

I have reservations about this as well. In T4 there will be the problem of being able to spec into an off tree to deal with, and the future interactions between both Wrath and Grace and Grace and Salvation bother me.

[Luranni]

I have reservations about this as well. In T4 there will be the problem of being able to spec into an off tree to deal with, and the future interactions between both Wrath and Grace and Grace and Salvation bother me.

Well I can't wait to get in on more detailed discussions on ways to really improve and define hybrid specs and suchlike.

Aaaaaaaand I'll just leave this here...

Spoiler:

[Bretin]

I have reservations about this as well. In T4 there will be the problem of being able to spec into an off tree to deal with, and the future interactions between both Wrath and Grace and Grace and Salvation bother me.

would you mind telling me, what exactly bothers you considering DoK has exactly the same choices a WP does but in a superior way?

it's not like we would reinvent the wheel, the reason for my suggestion was the possibility to include a class into an already existing and working metagame without making a gamebreaking change or a class redesign.

[magter3001]

K, just read the Aza post...

1. Identify the issue. Be as specific as possible.
The problem is a 10s curse debuff on a dps WP on a 10 second cooldown and how it would be used in a 6v6 environment.

2. Explain why it's an issue. You need to demonstrate why exactly the issue you've identified is such a problem, with reference to the metagame. To use an overpowered strategy as an example, this would involve demonstrating that the risk-reward balance of the strategy is incorrect, because the counterplay is either non-existent or overly demanding in comparison to the effort required to use the skill or strategy. It could also involve demonstrating that the strategy or game element is overcentralizing - i.e. that the metagame revolves around counters to this particular strategy or element, to the extent that not extensively preparing for it is an automatic death sentence.

The HD would be the only incoming heal debuff uncleansable by DoKs. That may not seem like a bad thing but consider that it would nullify an actual mdps class on Order... a trollslayer spec'd Slayer. There are some similar abilities that Slayers and WPs share. One is the heal debuff, which on the slayer, a dok can cleanse... making the HD second class to the WP one. Both classes have a self heal, though the WP one heals by more and can heal other's as well as himself... very useful in a 6v6 situation. Slayer's have a 10s root break/snare immunity on a 60s cooldown... DoKs have a CC immunity on a M2 with a 60s cooldown, one is just more readily available compared to the other. The one thing that slayers do bring is pure dps numbers... but it is all for naught if their heal debuff is cleansed, which even if buried under two slayer abilities, will be cleansed if the other premade brings two DoKs, which of course they will.

This means that the WP heal debuff is taken instead of the slayer... though providing less damage, it provides better utility, especially in the form of a harder to cleanse HD. This also would give to a new meta, WL+WP, because they both share curses (uncleasable by DoKs.) If the two dps are accompanied by a Knight and IB, then the DoKs have absolutely nothing to cleanse, removing any ability for the DoKs to use their group cleanse or cleanse in general... making this comp "overly demanding in comparison to the effort required to use the skill or strategy" Aza quotes.

3. Propose a viable solution to the problem. In the case of an overpowered strategy, this would involve proposing either fair nerfs to the strategy or constructing a means of counterplay on the opposite side. It does not matter too much if the solution you propose is demonstrated to have flaws, as long as those flaws were not completely and totally obvious when you posted your topic. The purpose of the ensuing debate is both to verify the topic starter's thinking is correct and to refine a response to the problem.

I offer two solutions... either make the heal debuff 50%, but keep it at 20s cooldown (not 10s) or keep it at 25%, make it a 10s cooldown and add damage to it. Contrary to what other's in this thread think about my view but I agree that wrath is not a good dps tree... however, I do not agree with making the heal debuff equal to that of what other mdps get, given that it would be the only incoming curse hd.

[Azarael]

My concern is that making both Grace and Wrath viable in and of themselves will cause problems later down the line when you get Grace spec WPs that are also able to throw out a 50% heal debuff of a highly valuable typing every 10s (or even 5s if cooldown reducing effects are in play) without having to use a tactic slot.

[Bretin]

Having said that I don't think the WP would become 100% broken OP with the change, I just don't agree with this "Gimme all the DPS toys" approach when I think everyone would love to see a richer development to the melee WP.

no he would just fit into the meta game and non is asking for "gimme all the DPS toys", i'm obviously talking about a already existing debuff which is available for all hybrid classes except the WP to involve him into a meta game. i really appreciate your roleplay m8 and i'm sure bitterstone thunderous do have some great ideas too about how cool engineers could be - regarding the lore - but why would you reinvent the wheel for no reason if you have an already working system?

[TenTonHammer]

DoK may not be able to clense it without m2 but Zelot can so whats the problem here?

Isnt encouraging the break up of 2xDoK a good thing?