[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[BrosephStylin]

I should clarify my own viewpoint here. I don't care that Grace WP as I view it won't be viable in zerg PvP. Other specs have that issue as well. My main concern is for the usefulness of the spec in smaller scale engagements.

Why would you limit yourself like that? Smaller scale engagements are becoming increasingly rare much faster than you think. The server is getting full more and more often, with more and more zergs showing their faces. The game, if you let it, will become as it was in live, a full zerg v zerg rvr mmo. Grace WP must be able to compete or else it will fall off like it did in live, with it only being an sc spec, which is honestly boring as ****.

Edit: And that very mindset of an ENTIRE SPEC being "not viable" is ridiculous. It's what the live devs did to half the specs and that was due to them not caring enough. Every spec must be viable in some way, or else it is just an inferior spec.

It's not limiting; it's being realistic. Half the classes in the game fall short in large RvR engagements: infact I'd wager to say that only about 8 classes are -really- needed in large-scale RvR).
Grace WP - like White Lions, Witch Hunters, and Single-target Slayers (do they exist?) - will pale in comparison to AOE BWs/Engis/Slayers in large-scale rvr. That's just the nature of zerg vs zerg.
Warrior Priest can already compete in RVR by being a healbot. If you want to do zergs as a WP, that's the spec to be.

Scenario/6man/roaming spec - that is what grace/wrath should be attuned for. It's not a ridiculous mindset when it is very much the truth: have a look, play all the classes, and tell me which ones are viable in large-scale RvR.

Broseph: if you equate topping damage in a scenario to being a viable class, then this argument is already lost.

You just compared a healer to three pure damage classes. They are, like tanks, have completely different specializations. The only things you should be comparing WP to are other healing classes. Many of which have far better lifetaps specs than Grace WP. All of the tanks and healers specs can be applied in orvr, so should Grace WP.

[ThePollie]

You just compared a healer to three pure damage classes. They are, like tanks, have completely different specializations. The only things you should be comparing WP to are other healing classes. Many of which have far better lifetaps specs than Grace WP. All of the tanks and healers specs can be applied in orvr, so should Grace WP.

Grace and Wrath both can be applied to oRvR.

This might be a mild shock, but bear with it, a class does not need to perform 100% as well as every other in oRvR to be used in that environment. Grace has disadvantages in large-scale combat, it happens.

[BrosephStylin]

The sad thing is that you can't simply mess around with all the fundamentals of the game and expect the core design to be able to hold.

Allowing both minmaxing to extremes and engagements of highly variable playercount means that choices will have to be made about where some specs will perform best.

You misunderstand what I am asking for. The fundamentals of Grace Warrior Priest are fine, but they need a little boost to be able to compete with other single target mdps. They will never be ridiculously OP like slayer or BW, but in order to warrant a dps slot in a warband, they need to actually fill the required dps for that group, even if it is the very minimum.

[BrosephStylin]

You just compared a healer to three pure damage classes. They are, like tanks, have completely different specializations. The only things you should be comparing WP to are other healing classes. Many of which have far better lifetaps specs than Grace WP. All of the tanks and healers specs can be applied in orvr, so should Grace WP.

Grace and Wrath both can be applied to oRvR.

This might be a mild shock, but bear with it, a class does not need to perform 100% as well as every other in oRvR to be used in that environment. Grace has disadvantages in large-scale combat, it happens.

Not just disadvantages, but both specs have long stints of complete uselessness, just like other single target dps. Except they don't nearly perform as well as other single target dps in orvr engagements, which MUST BE FIXED.

[Azarael]

It mustn't be fixed, though, because it seems that you are the only one who is of the opinion that just because Grace is one of the healer specs, it must therefore work in RvR. I view as issues abilities or specs which have NO place in the game. As long as an ability or spec has some place, somewhere, it's not a problem for me.

Is Khaine SM performant in RvR? DPS AM/Shaman? Those are tank/healer single target specs. Do you consider them to be any good?

[ThePollie]

Not just disadvantages, but both specs have long stints of complete uselessness, just like other single target dps. Except they don't nearly perform as well as other single target dps in orvr engagements, which MUST BE FIXED.

Patrol the wall, provide medical attention to shadow warriors and bright wizards attacking the enemy. Check the gate, tend to anyone's injuries there, rotate as you see fit. Keep morale built up, be prepared to use it if and when the gate comes down or if the leader organizes a push outside of the keep.

[Scrilian]

Pure damage classes have that setup, but tanks and healers do not. Their specializations are completely different playstyles from eachother, with each one having completely different applications, both in orvr AND scenarios. Grace WP should fill this requirement.

Still almost every spec is divided between orvr tree, scen tree and utility tree. Now you want your utility tree to compete with your rvr tree and thats ludicrous.

[BrosephStylin]

It mustn't be fixed, though, because it seems that you are the only one who is of the opinion that just because Grace is one of the healer specs, it must therefore work in RvR. I view as issues abilities or specs which have NO place in the game. As long as an ability or spec has some place, somewhere, it's not a problem for me.

Is Khaine SM performant in RvR? DPS AM/Shaman? Those are tank/healer single target specs. Do you consider them to be any good?

Yes actually, all of those classes you listed are more viable in orvr engagements than grace WP, lol. Maybe not the best, but definitely superior than Grace or Wrath WP.

[peterthepan3]

^Which is precisely what warranted the recent additions to the class, and this thread as a whole.

Welcome on board.

However it must be noted that Grace DPS - although it must be buffed imo - should not be buffed to a point where it would render Wrath useless. Wrath should still be the 'DPS' spec (and, I agree, able to fill in a DPS slot), while Grace is more of a utility/dps hybrid. So both specs must receive attention.

I know you mentioned you're focusing on Grace for now, Aza (which I completely understand, given that the class was designed for such a role), so don't get me wrong! Any buff is a good thing for 2h WPs.

[Azarael]

Yes actually, all of those classes you listed are more viable in orvr engagements than grace WP, lol. Maybe not the best, but definitely superior than Grace or Wrath WP.

Of course they're more viable. They're still inferior, though, aren't they? SM is an obvious example - if you're playing SM in zerg engagements, you should have a shield on and be specced for Whispering Winds. It's exactly the same issue.

In an ideal world, we would be able to create specs which have utility in every part of the game. However, this isn't an ideal world, and the reality of the situation is that combat in 6v6, 12v12, 24v24 and 200v200 is different. So too must the strategy employed by a class change, and this is partly what specialization is for.